BTW, is there a still a General of the Army rank which trumps all other officers of all other services in unified command (a virtual O-11)?
This rank is (or was) a five-star general in the U.S. Army – which I understand is now either very rare or non-existant. However, IIRC, Eisenhower and MacArthur both were five-star Generals at various times, and were in total command of all U.S. services in their respective theaters. Also IIRC, five-star generals were accountable only to the Commander-in-Chief.
I believe the SECDEF still has the authority to create an O-11 position, but it hasn’t been used since WWII. The Navy also had some five-star rank during the war (Nimitz?). Damn, all that first year ROTC info has been replaced by more practical knowledge!
For GK purposes, from my experience the AF is more lax with their rank structures and customs than anyone else.
For CDR Yeah, my word is: the guy at the sign-in desk saw O-5, wrote that down, and the guy on the PA saw O-5. It’s an Air Force base - an O-5 is called “Colonel”. If you were Space-Aing you were probably in civilian clothes; airman no-stripe on the PA has no way to know you’re a Navy guy.
Being a (former) AF guy, my main concern is: “Am I getting on the flight?”. I would worry more about the pax load or the MX status of the jet than whether or not some overworked airman missed the fact that I was Navy!
I was talking to a couple of marines in the bar the other day, and they said that the whole saluting thing in movies is completely wrong.
For example…every time a junior officer comes in or leaves a room they salute…
They said something to the effect of saluting only happens when people are wearing sidearms… that and something to do with wearing your hat / cap / lid… both on gets a salute, both off don’t…also something about a situation when a marine is on “post” or guarding something…anyone that shows up regardless of rank has to do what he says (if he can’t readily identify them or something like that)
someone please set me straight. When do you salute, when do you don’t? Same for all branches?
Navy: Doesn’t salute in civvies. Doesn’t salute in uniform if uncovered (means not wearing a hat). Salutes indoors when reporting for Captain’s Mast. Also, the Officer of the Deck/Junior Officer of the Deck/Petty Officer of the Watch (as the case may be) returns both the salute to the national ensign and the salute from the individual requesting permission to come aboard or go ashore.
Army: Salutes indoors only when reporting (such as for pay or for Article 15). Salutes in civvies if one recognizes warrant or commissioned officer who outranks you.
I’d imagine that the other services have their own rules regarding the hand salute.
If one has an unholstered weapon in hand, then one salutes using the “present arms” method for that weapon. If the weapon is at “sling arms,” then one renders the hand salute or unslings the weapon and renders the “present arms” for that weapon.
Marines follow the same rules as the Navy, basically. If they are enlisted Marines in a room, standing a duty watch which requires them to be covered (wear a hat) and armed either with a sidearm (pistol), or even a Duty Belt, then they would come to attention and salute an officer as he entered or departed a room.
When uncovered, not standing a Duty Watch, if a senior officer enters a room, one Marine would say “Attention on Deck” and they would remain standing at attention until that officer departed, or more often when he/she called the “At Ease”, or “As You Were”. Junior Officers would do the same for more senior officers. Generally this does not happen unless the senior officer is quite senior (a platoon would not do it with the Platoon Commander (2ndLt) in day-to-day activities, but would do it for the Battalion Commander, LtCol).
Monty, I’ve never been in the Army, but I was not aware a soldier in civvies would ever salute, but they would salute a senior officer wearing civvies if the soldier was in uniform. Is this what you mean? It would be the same with Marines.
Military ranks and grades are established by law. I think the 5-star rank still exists but is currently unoccupied. It was established during WWII in order to give US officers equal rank with the rank of Marshall in other military establishments.
Military officers hold commissions from the President. All military personnel are subject to the authority of the civilian secretary of the particular branch involved. That is a 5-star general cannot go around the Secretary of the Army and the Secretary of Defense and appeal directly to the President without violating protocol. The President can, of course, go directly to a person at any level in the executive department chain of command but such action could easily lead to confusion, not to say resentment.
Don’t they hold their commissions from Congress? I could have sworn that Congress has to approve all commissions (usually they do so in rubber-stamp mode).
UncleBill: In the US Army, Soldiers do salute when both the individual saluting and the individual receiving the salute are in civvies. I thought it was silly when I was in the Army and now that I’m retired from the Navy, that thought is reinforced.
zev: Commissioned Officers hold their commissions from the President of the United States. Warrant Officers receive their warrants from the Secretary of their Service. Navy Chief Warrant Officers are commissioned (which is another silly thing–if you’re going to commission someone, commission them!) although they’re still in the Warrant Officer paygrades. Also, the Navy does not use the WO5 rank, which, IIRC, is called Master Chief Warrant Officer in the other Branches.
My commission as a 2nd Lt. in WWII read, “I, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, President of the United States of America for the time being, do hereby blah, blah, blah.”
I believe that Congress has to approve the elevation of officers to General Officer or Flag rank.
I think Harry Truman rather summarily dismissed McArthur, although his commission wasn’t revoked by that action.
Disciplinary action in the service has to be by the established rules. I suppose the President could revoke a commission for officers below the ranks of General but there would need to be a hearing of some kind, like a court martial, beforehand. The officer would be dismissed from the service. For a criminal offense military prison could be the punishment followed by dismissal from the service upon discharge from the prison.
Monty, you have definitely had more experience than I with this in the Army. And probably at different times. My experience was as a Marine on Ft Bliss when the CG wrote a column in the base newspaper in 1989, after a soldier in uniform recognized him running, and said “Good Morning, Sir”, but did not salute him. At THAT time he was telling folks that if the soldier is in uniform, they salute the General in running clothes. I recall this because he was pissed and said in the article that the only unit with proper military courtesy was the Marine Admin Detachment which ran the Marine Corps schools on base.
Since you were in the Army, I was doubting my memory, so I looked it up. AR 600-25, 1-3.f. (warning, PDF) states “Salutes are not required to be rendered or returned if either the senior or subordinate or both are in civilian attire.” This Reg is dated Sept, 1983. I presume it is still current.
We may BOTH be wrong here.
zev, the officer could be transferred to the Reserves (which is technically resigning one Regular Commission and accepting a Reserve Commission), or booted/retired. I know of one Captain who was passed over too many times, and took a Gunnery Sergeant rank until retirement, but that is the only one I’d heard of, and I do not have all the details of that. He retired as a Captain.
“Don’t they hold their commissions from Congress? I could have sworn that Congress has to approve all commissions (usually they do so in rubber-stamp mode).”
I think you’re correct that Congress has to approve all commissions (even though the Pres. may be the issuing authority). I do know for certain that at least the last time I was promoted (O-5 to O-6) the promotion required congressional approval. (I think that applied to O-4 to O-5 as well and may have applied for lower ranks.)
UncleBill, thanks for the AR cite. It’s good to know that there is no requirement for a salute. However, I have a question about what is considered proper. If an officer in civilian clothes drives onto a base and presents her ID to a service member in uniform at the gate, the person examing the ID will usually return the ID and salute. Does the officer return the salute (fumbling with the steering wheel, gear shift, ID card, wallet, and window crank, or does she just say thank you?
When I was in the Army, vehicle drivers did not salute in the interest of safety. For that reason, The Officer’s Guide said that officers shouldn’t drive vehicles because this would prevent them from returning salutes. I think the rule against officers driving was violated quite frequently, at least overseas.
I drove to work through the main and back gates in uniform probably over a thousand times, and protocol was to acknowledge the guard’s salute, but not to return it. I always raised my hand in a small wave, uniformed or not. (USMC, MCAS Cherry Point, 1989 - 1992)
We all know a Major outranks a Lt. How come, then, a Lt General outranks a Major General?
Also, regarding the notion that a higher rank always has authority. What about guard/security situations? Can’t the guard (presumably enlisted) tell an officer to leave an area if they don’t have clearance? I bring this up because a cow-orker was fond of telling a story about visiting his brother (an AF Maj.) on his base in Germany. His brother took him around the base and he (the civilian) took some photos of the brother by his plane and whatnot. Apparently, a vehicle pulls up and several serious looking guys get out (all enlisted). They proceed to confiscate the camera and question what they are doing.
Could the major have just pulled rank and told them to piss off? Could he have gotten them in trouble? Is my cow-orker making stuff up?
jk1245: This was hashed out here not long ago. Basically, there is rank/grade authority, and there is positional/duty authority.
Certain folks have authority over all others, regardless of rank, when engaged in certain duties. Aircraft commanders, boat coxswains, certain guards/sentries, etc. They have specific authority over all others, delegated usually in writing/policy in their specific realm of duty. For example, in my service, the CG rescue boats have a coxswain in charge, who is usually an E4-E6. Sometimes higher, sometimes even an E3. Their authority on that boat is almost absolute, and is detailed in service wide policy. They can be tasked by parent commands to do certain missions, but the ultimate decision to go, and how to go, is up to them. Only a few people can relieve them of their responsibilities. And those few people who can, do so because of their positions, not because of their rank or grade.
I have no doubt that certain guards/sentries have the authority to tell anyone not specifically cleared to be there, to leave or face military charges or arrest. Regardless of rank.
Nope, guards and duty personnel carry the authority of the CO for whatever unit they are working for. In Security matters, there is no rank that can break the rules and get away with it, in theory.
“Lieutenant” means “assistant” as I recall. In the way back days, the Lt assisted the Captain, and the LtGen assisted the General (4 star). The ranks have been expanded to include the Brigadier General and Major General, and 2ndLt and 1stLt. No time to look up cites right now.