Stupid question about the military

If there were a “stupid questions” forum, I’d post this there, but…

No member of my family has served in the military since WW2 and I’ve never known any active or retired military personnel well enough to ask these questions.

1- Obviously, a master seargant with 30 years of experience is a much more valuable asset to the military than a fresh from ROTC 20something lieutenant. Is the lieutenant still his superior officer? Is the lieutenant paid more? Do people remain non-coms by choice? Are there any instances when a Master Seargant can outrank a lieutenant?

2- Can an Air Force lieutenant give an order to a Marine seargant? Is he still his superior officer even though it’s a different branch of service?

Apologizing for the ignorance,
S

  1. Yes, yes, sometimes, no.
  2. Yes–it would be under unusual circumstances, though.

A senior NCO with some years of service can be paid more than a junior officer, often by quite a margin. Here’s a link to current military base pay scales http://www.dfas.mil/money/milpay/pay/01-2002.pdf

Keep in mind this is base pay and total pay is a complex issue.

A commisioned officer is always superior to an enlisted person or warrant officer as far as rank goes. A junior officer with half an ounce of sense will know that NCOs are the backbone of the military and will act accordingly.

An AF lieutenant can give lawful orders to a marine corps seargant. This depends a lot on context but usually goes within chain of command or the scope of duties of both officer and enlisted person. Enlisted personnel must salute commissioned officers of any branch of the military when appropriate. This brings up odd situations because navy personnell never salute unless wearing a hat.

Welcome to SDMB Sampiro. Fighting ignorance is what we’re all about. No need to apologize for a very good question. It probably should have gone to general questions rather than great debates though. Mods?

NCO = non-comissioned officer, generally E-4 and above

Those are not stupid questins at all, S.

1-It’s not really obvious. The Master Sergeant is a valuable asset for what he does. The Lieutenant is a valuable asset for what he does. Their jobs, and consequently their missions, are different.

1a-Rank is not equal to worth. One contributes differently than another to the overall mission. The Lieutenant still outranks the Master Sergeant.

1b-The pay charts have a couple of interesting tidbits in them. For a while there, as an E5 over a certain number of years service, I was getting higher base pay than my supervisor who was an E6. He wasn’t too happy about it. Of course, he didn’t want to listen to me tell him that he was getting paid way more than I was due to his receiving Basic Allowance for Quarters, Overseas Housing Allowanc, and Cost of Living Allowance for 4 dependents.

1c-Yes, some of us remain Non-Commissioned or Petty Officers by choice. For some of us, the choice is removed due to certain factors not within our control: billet availability, age requirements, security clearance requirements (some jobs in the military are not open to those with immediate family members who are foreign nationals), etc.

2a-Yes, an Air Force Lieutenant may legally issue an order to the Marine Corps Sergeant; however, that order must be within the Lieutenant’s general military authority. In other words, the Air Force Liuetenant who’s getting assistance from a unit clerk at the local Marine Corps base because he needs to have his military ID card updated may correct the Sergeant if said Sergeant does not display the appropriate military courtesies. What the Lieutenant may not do is tell the Sergeant how to do his job. That’s within the positional authority of the Sergeant’s supervisor.

2b-Yes. The Lieutenant outranks the Sergeant. I, as a Petty Officer First Class outrank the Sergeant also.

This lengthy post brought to you by your friendly retired PN1, USN, Monty.

Yes. A newly minted 2nd Lt. outranks any noncom. However, a smart junior officer will recognise the sergeants vast experience and not be a prick about it.

Think of the analogy in the corporate world - you can easily have someone with 20 years of experience as a salesman working under a fresh-out-of-college manager, since the type of work they’re doing is very different. It works kind of the same way in practice in both places; while the new Lt./manager can tell the experienced guy what to do, if he starts being absurd then the older guy can stop working well with him or let what’s going on be known to higher-ups.

From anecdotes my military/former military friends have told me, a newly minted 2nd Lt who starts pushing around a 30-year master sergeant will rapidly learn how things work. The sergeant will literally follow his orders (in some cases maliciously) but won’t go out of his way to help, and other higher-ranking officers will educate (often through unpleasant but amusing means) him as to the proper working relationship between them.

Also, FYI, there are situations where a person has authority over people who outrank him. For example, MPs in pursuit of someone can order pretty much anyone out of their way, and medical personnel get similar authority during a medical emergency.

However, if the manager starts being absurd, the 20-year-experienced salesman has the option of quitting his job and working elsewhere. If the Lieutennant starts being absurd, the experienced Sergeant does not have that option. (S)he is stuck with it. Military service, in this regard, is more like slavery.

Officers in the Chaplain Corps, Judge Advocates (lawyers), Medical Officers, etc. do not generally have what is called “line authority.” I.e. they can’t issue orders to operational troops in action an expect them to be obeyed.

However, as far as military customs and courtesies are concerned, they still have the rank.

As was outlined in another thread, the pilot of an airplane (and I would assume the Captain of a ship) is in command irrespective of the rank of any passengers on board.

For example, the commander of a a fleet issues orders to the captain of the ship that is acting as flagship through the chain of command just as if he were on a different ship. The “Flag,” as the fleet or flotilla commander’s office is called, is a separate organization from the ship’s company.

I suspect I’ve gotten a few details a little wrong, but the beauty of SDMB is that someone will be along to clear those up.

Remember, at least in the Army and in the combat arms, a junior officer has a fairly limited list of duties. This has been pointed out in other posts. The young lieutenant’s essential function is, when enemy fire starts coming into the area in horizonal sheets and everyone goes to ground, to run up and down the line kicking people’s feet and getting them to move. For this period of running and kicking the junior officer is the only guy standing up. Do you really want that job?

The other principal responsibility is to be the guy who gets chewed on when something goes wrong. Junior officers are essentially interns but they do the stuff that is too dangerous or unpleasant to have someone more valuable do. That’s what lieutenants get paid for. Old sergeants, on the other hand, get paid for what they know.

Anyone else want to nominate this for stupidest thing they have heard all day? Do you even know what you are talking about tracer? The sergeant can do a lot of things. Depending on where they are in their service, they can quit, or switch to a new job. The most likely avenue is they will have a quiet talk with the Lieutenant’s superior. If the Lt is out of line, chances are the captain he or she works for will deal with the problem swiftly. If the Lt’s absurdity happens to be illegal orders, the Sgt can go to the IG if necessary.

The average 2nd Lt knows that they are superior to the senior NCO in a de jure fashion only. Unless the Lt is a moron, he or she will treat the NCO with respect and get every ounce of knowledge and experience out of the NCO as possible.

[Moderator Hat ON]

Since this seems to be a factual question, I am moving it to General Questions. Play nice for bibliophage, DrMatrix and manny.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

Rossarian If you were ever in the military, you certainly weren’t in the USMC, and if you were, I’m embarrassed for the USMC and your unit. Quitting or changing your job isn’t an option executed at will. And an NCO will know what is a lawful order and what isn’t. Also, assuming you are responding to a different service scenario and sometimes, even in the same service, the Sgt isn’t going to go to the “other” LT’s superior. They will go to their own LT and say (speaking from experience) “this dipshit wants me to do this and it’s fucked up. I need some horsepower”. Your second paragraph is correct though, unless you are talking about people coming out of Canoe U.

Actually, tracer, military service is more akin to voluntary indentured service, not slavery (BTW, that was abolished a long time ago). Your scenario of a lieutenant giving absurd orders happens often enough, but in most cases (depending on the order) a sergeant will either talk it over and come to a compromise, carry out the task and let the LT look the fool, or in more extreme cases, go to their First Sergeant or Sergeant Major for advice and help. Relocating the sergeant or officer to another job is only used as a last resort. More than once I have seen a grizzled SGM give a green LT a good dressing down. Fun stuff. Generally, absurdity doesn’t get to far in the military, esp. when it can get somebody killed or injured when not in combat.

As to the OP, several posters have mentioned situations where a lower ranking officer or NCO will have authority (or their orders trump authority) over a superior. I might throw in guard duty and military schools (instructor/student) as good examples as well.

Here’s some good charts comparing the different services and their officer and enlisted ranks.

Monty’s answer to question 2a is an excellent example of command authority vs. general authority. Command authority is conferred (usually in writing) to those who have direct control over and are directly responsible for you. General authority is given upon promotion or conferrence of rank, as in “A lieutenant outranks all sergeants and therefore has general authority over you”. To a civilian this is like saying “Be respectful to your elders”.

It’s likely a lot of your “stupid” (they’re not, by the way) questions can be answered at www.armystudyguide.com. Well, Army-related questions anyway.

It goes much further than that. In the CG, all those thousands of small boats at Search and Rescue stations, and all the small boats from cutters are run by coxswains. Coxswains are usually E-4/E-5, but can in fact be as low as E-2. They are usually Boatswain Mates, but any rating/non-rate can be one. Their authority on the boat is almost absolute. As you stated in your example of the aircraft commander, the same applies here. The authority they possess is well defined in CG regs. The sheer responsibility these folks have at the junior enlisted level, considering they deal with everything from naval engineering problems, domestic and international maritime laws, SAR and personnel is amazing.

[slight hijack]
Question to the DOD dopers: Do Navy coxswains retain similiar authority, on say Ship launches up to LCACs? How about Army & Air Force? I know those services have quite a few boats, with the Army having more than anyone else. Does the Marine Corp (oo-rah) operate any independent small boats?
[/sight hijack]

Sure enlisted personnel and warrant officers, regardless of rank and years of service, have to salute any officer regardless of how junior the officer is, but IMHO, that’s not a big deal. Let’s talk about what is really important: parking space at the exchange and commissary. At just about all military installatations I have been on lately, there is one or more parking space reserved for the most senior non-commissioned officers. I have never seen such parking for any officer rank below lieutenant colonel/commander.

For question 1, Sampiro, you say “Obviously, a master seargant with 30 years of experience is a much more valuable asset to the military than a fresh from ROTC 20something lieutenant.” This isn’t necessarily the case. At least, I doubt the DoD would agree to such a generalization. A fresh Ensign or LTjg fresh out of flight school driving an F/A-18 has had hundreds of thousands of dollars pumped into him. Aside from that, the potential he represents is immeasurable. Compare this to a senior NCO who’s job in the mililtary is (and has always been) to deal with administrative issues. For me, this is very hard to compare, and I wouldn’t be so quick to come to your above generalization. Also, keep in mind that there’s always a small percentage of misinformed or just plain bad soldiers and sailors. This goes for officer and enlisted alike. If a green junior officer has a dirtbag or totally misinformed NCO under him (it happens, just as the reverse happens), then it’s the junior officer’s duty to assert his authority.

For question 2, this happens every day, all the time. Keep in mind there are combined commands (otherwise known as “unified” commands) where members of all the services work together under a single commander.

Glad to see your priorities are in order, Yeah.

Speaking of generalizations, and incorrect ones at that. Not to start a GD here, but the above statement, while perhaps true in some areas, is completely untrue as a whole.

Well the OP was in GD but I don’t think the discussion warrants it as the reality of military life vs. abstract rank is a pretty fluid thing.

The best example I can give of how the military values senior NCOs over junior officers is the food on an aircraft carrier. Aside from the captain of the ship/flag officer blue tile folks the CPOs have the nicest mess deck and the best food. Junior officers often have the poorest food and to add insult they have to pay for it themselves.

It looks like there are two of us with our priorities in order.

Chiefs also pay for their mess aboard ship.