Does Satan think God's predictions are wrong?

Great Debates
41

Genesis 3:1-5

1 Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?” 2At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’” 4At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”

So he lies, and deliberately misleads God’s first human creation. Then:

Genesis 3:14-15

14 And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: “Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life. 15And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.

God doesn’t like this, and so gives an immediate punishment, as well as a future punishment. Sounds like an unwelcome rebellious act to me. Not a huge leap to extrapolate from that the Satanic rebellion. Also:

Job 1:6-8

*6Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.
7Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” 8And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad?” 9At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? 10Have not you yourself put up a hedge about him and about his house and about everything that he has all around? The work of his hands you have blessed, and his livestock itself has spread abroad in the earth. 11But, for a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch everything he has [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.” 12Accordingly Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!” So Satan went out away from the person of Jehovah.
*

Satan is here described as entering in before God as the other angels do, but it say “even Satan”, so it is a bit of a surprise, and he say’s he’s been wandering about in the Earth. Clearly he’s been off his leash, if God even has to ask. He outright questions God’s way of doing things, and whether or not God’s creation serves Him out of genuine motive, and demands a test of His servant Job in order to make Him look bad if Job were to fail and curse God.

Again, sounds a wee bit rebellious to me, and doesn’t require much extrapolation to get to Satanic Rebellion.

Then there’s the bit in Revelation, which was already quoted, about the war between Michael and Satan, and the two angelic armies in opposition to one another, and how Satan’s bunch lose and are confined to the Earth. If not for a Satanic Rebellion, why the war?
Regarding the OP: Of course Satan has knowledge of the Bible (James 2:19 You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder), and all God’s predictions, but he’s too arrogant and proud to submit to them. He believes that his way of doing things is better, and that humanity would be better off without God. Satan’s currently in control of the entire world, and is trying to make it work out completely separate from God’s rulership. (1 John 5:19 - 19 We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.)

It’s not going to work out for him in the long run (Revelation 20:10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.) And dare I say it’s not working out too well at the present time either.

42

So your take is that he, more or less, thinks God’s full of it and isn’t swayed by the prophecies in Revelation. Are you aware of any viewpoint that involves Satan accepting the prophecy and, with it, his fate?

43

Not quite. Not that Satan thinks God’s full of it, but that he thinks his way is better, and so will fight God to the bitter end.

Also, Satan’s smart enough to know that he’s beyond redemption for what he’s done thus far, and so I guess that qualifies as Satan accepting the prophecy and his fate.

Matthew 12:31,32

31“On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.

Mark 3:29

However, whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin.
Alas, I must retire for the evening, but will check back again tomorrow night to respond to the inevitable onslaught of anti-religious folk. :slight_smile:

44

Like I said, retconning. No mention of any such thing in the original Hebrew, and I was taught by people who could and did read it that way.

45

So the place is like Club Med! Good to know.

46

The Millennium hasn’t started yet, right, so what John says about Satan after it has no relevance today. So my question stands.

I don’t suspect we’ll find many Dopers foolish enough to believe in the legends about Satan - kanicbird doesn’t it seems. None of them make much sense, clearly. Satan is about as present in our world as Elvis.

47

Bingo! Would God flood out and drown millions of people? Would God order his people to slaughter their enemies? Would God allow earthquakes and tsunamis?
I think not.
I hope this God of love shows up some day. We could sure use him.

48

Notice who he punishes, though - snakes. Even if you buy that Satan took over a snake (and there is nothing in the Hebrew to give this impression) it is kind of a dick move to punish all snakes for this. No one has seemed to be able to find a Biblical reference to this snake being Satan - have one? And don’t give me Revelations - I don’t care what first century nuts who smoked one too many mushrooms say.

I thought the Satanic Rebellion was before there were people on earth - if not, why did God let Satan get away with the Eve bit (since that is what you think) and still be best buds. If Satan really was in rebellion, what is he doing showing up in heaven? And why doesn’t God do anything? Does he not have his posse with him?
And, please note that Satan does nothing to Job and his family - God does it all. Sure Job comes out of it smelling like a rose, but too bad about his first family who got snuffed, right? Job, if I understand it, was a very early story, and women and children didn’t count for much back then.

So, is Satan too stupid to know he can’t win? When did he take over the world? From the beginning? Before or after Jesus? And actually, believe it or not, the world is getting better. Famines are new now, not something to be expected almost everywhere. People are living longer. Disease is being defeated. People are more literate. There are tyrants, but there are lots of non-tyrants, a big change from the past. If Satan is running things, he’s not doing that bad a job. Of course he has had a lot of help from science and medicine.

But, to be clear, I went to five years of Hebrew School and we never got indoctrinated with this Satan crap. That’s a Christian invention to scare the little children.

49

Why wouldn’t he? He has command over life and death. The lives he destroys, he can recreate in the blink of an eye. It’s never said anywhere that he destroys souls, so he’s just destroying the physical bodies. Fathers aren’t always nice, they can’t be. If your children go around killing each other and disobeying you, and outwardly defying you whenever you try and correct them, you’re not gonna be blamed for giving them a quick spank to reassert your authority as a warning against further insubordination. That’s what killing those millions of evil people is to God - a spanking - because he can recreate them effortlessly.

It sounds horrible and evil, sure. But loathe as some people may be to accept it, violence is sometimes necessary to prevent later, greater suffering, like performing surgery. Cutting someone open is pretty violent any way you look at it, but we don’t question it, because we understand it prevents later suffering and we expect it to be done in a quick and efficient way. Spanking those murdering, pillaging children would (at least for purposes of this example) prevent further murder and pillaging.
It’s also kind of funny how we have some double standards when it comes to violence - like there’s a variable level of “deservedness”. Rapists who attack children are typically considered the most depraved, evil individuals, and people celebrate when they get tossed in jail, or are executed. Look at the reaction to Josef Fritzl - we’re not talking about a big happy family accepting all people regardless of faith, race or creed that got drowned by an evil, narcissistic God. We’re talking about complete anarchy, where everyone routinely cuts off their noses to spite their face, and make the world a worse place for their enemies - everyone else.

That’s not the musings of a genocidal maniac bent on destroying those who didn’t shine his shoes well enough, it’s a movie plotline where the villain who intends to purge the earth of all life with terrifying nerve gas is shot by his own mother in the dramatic finale on the rooftop. “Maybe by destroying this evil I helped create, I can cope with some of this unbearable guilt. Maybe it will make up for it, however slightly.”

“Except this guy, this is the one guy who’s not a complete asshole to everyone everywhere, all the time.” Killing the villain, but letting his not-evil son live. Or in the surgery example, cutting out the cancerous lung to spare the rest of the body (though in this case it’s a little more than just one lung). Just think of it as God being our father, not our desperate lover who would never do anything to hurt us for fear of us abandoning them.
I should note, I’m not religious. I’m not arguing this to justify any faith I already have, I’m saying this from a logical perspective. You just can’t discount tough love because you think it’s distasteful.

I should also note, this is assuming for purposes of this argument that free will exists, and that God, even though he may (or may not) have the power to command us to move according to his will, does not do so, for whatever reason (maybe he thinks commanding them is tantamount to killing them, because it would no longer be their life).

50

There are two theories that make sense to me:

  1. The Bible is inerrant, Satan is doomed, but he can hurt God by condemning most of the Earth’s people to share his punishment.

  2. The Bible is not inerrant, in fact Revelations and other end time prophecies were made up because it’s human nature to want every story to have a beginning and an end. And furthermore, God is not totally omnipotent and omniscient, he just is by the standards of man. He can be beaten, and Satan intends to beat him.

51

This verse is not in isolation - nor do I see much of the stockholm syndrome here but anyway. We must become Jesus meaning we must become God’s sons and daughters, we must realize this is our birthright - when we decide that the God of Love is our Father we are Jesus to God. It is discovery of who we are that sets us free (you will know the truth and the truth will set you free). It is the end of the stockholm syndrome as you now have the authority level beyond Satan’s ability to hold you captive.

God’s offer is immediate adoption of all who desire it.

As I read Job, I see it as a celestial custody battle where Satan tries everything he is given authority to do to have Job hate God thereby chose Satan, but instead Job learns that the one who is hurting him is not God, but Satan, and in the end Job learn why it was allowed, Job needed also to learn something, like not bearing his families sins (this I believe was the reason for the trials, Job accepted the sins of his family willingly).

52

One could wonder if it is a delusion of John’s since according to Matthew and Mark, the world woud have ended in the first Century,Jesus is quoted as saying the sun would lose it’s light the stars fall etc. It didn’t happen.Some religions translate generation to mean differently than we think of it today, But Matthew also used the same meaning for generation when he said there were 14 generations between David and Jesus.

53

One possible reconciliation could be the notion that Satan is only looking at the brief period of time where he will rule, despite ultimately losing. It’s more of a ‘live for the now’ type view.

54

Yes, I think so as to the first part. At least the God of the Old Testament. He was pretty pissed off at how bad his little experiment was going here on earth. It wasn’t until the New Testament that God got a handle on the love thing.

55

The Lord did come in the first Century as recorded in Acts 7:55,56, but this seemed to be one person at a time, only visible to the saved person - the rest are ‘left behind’ in their illusion of this world. I believe this has been going on throughout history and happens today just as it has back then. So Jesus words that ‘some will not taste death till they see my kingdom coming with power’ is true as well as the Revelation trials, which are identical to the exodus trials in Egypt as they are the same thing - the cycle of God’s purification and also the harvest of the earth is ongoing and cyclical. and there is a alternate reality that the believe can see, actually the alternate is the true reality where those things happen that are written about, non-believers will not see it as Jesus states.

56

He didn’t just kill evil people - he killed little babies also. If Noah and family could take care of umpteen animals, couldn’t they also take care of umpteen innocent babies. I’m sure he could find room for them in that Tardis Ark of his.

Ah, God flooded the village in order to save it. Got it. Did he “recreate” all those people he spanked with plenty of water? There are many better ways of disciplining kids then spanking, nevertheless no one but evil maniacs disciplines through torture or killing. If you waterboarded a kid you’d get locked up.
As for surgery, when I’ve undergone surgery I’ve signed consent forms. Did the people God drown sign them. if a doctor grabs me and cuts me open without permission, even for the best of purposes, that mofo is getting he butt sued off and will likely wind up in jail.

Is drowning children better than raping them? We of course have only the word of the criminal about the evil of the victim. Not sure how that would stand up in court.
Of course the flood never happened, so it is a moot point. The various tsunamis did. Were the babies who died in them evil also? Were they the result of free will?

Really? If you are an atheist, please don’t post any more, since you are giving us a bad name. Most religious people aren’t quite as forgiving of viciousness as you are. I’m aware of tough love, and it does not involve murder.

This happened not that long after creation. Now, free will implies that some people will do evil, that is in the design specs. If God designed us so that everyone - a few did evil, his design is badly broken. If I’m designing a game playing program that involves chance, and it loses a couple of times due to bad rolls of the dice, that is fine. If it loses all the time, I screwed up.

57

The OT god just kills people. The NT god both kills people and sentences them to eternal torture. I’ll take mine, thanks.

58

Voyager, your flippant responses seem to indicate that you have absolutely zero interest in seeing things from another’s point of view. If this is the case, why do you continue? Are you just interested in picking on people you believe to be less educated on the subject than you are?

That didn’t work out to well for Diogenes the Cynic in the long run :slight_smile:

If you’re actually interested in hearing Biblical evidence and having a discussion, and are open to the possibility that what you know and have been taught are wrong, then let’s do that.

If you’re already certain of your view, and not open to any possibility of changing it, then there’s no debate here, no ignorance to be fought, no discussion to be had. You’re just running around with the aethist hammer banging religious minded folks on the head with it. That’s not gonna be effective at changing anyone’s mind.

You’ve got to realize that nothing *anyone *knows is inerrant perfect truth, despite the beliefs of some churchgoers. We’re all just imperfect humans. That includes you, and what you’ve learned, and me, and what I’ve learned. If you ever for a second get to that point, where your current set of thoughts are inerrant and infallible, and that the logic’s already been worked out so there’s no room for learning, well then you may as well just end your life because you’re at the peak and there’s nowhere to go but downhill.

And don’t go getting your feelings all hurt like I’m insulting you, because I’m not. Sometimes the truth is unpleasant. Getting there’s the hard part, and most people give up while they’re still comfortably ignorant.

59
  1. Satan will be destroyed in the same way Anakin was destroyed–only to become Darth Vader. Obi-Wan comes right out and says Darth Vader killed Anakin. So it’s just a pretty way to say, "Satan will wise up one day and seek readmittance into heaven, and God, being all merciful and shit, will welcome him back as a wiser, stronger angel.

or

  1. Satan knows God is full of it. God created Satan and Satan rebelled. If God is infallable, then Satan performed as designed. A merciful God would not punish the actions He Himself created Satan to perform, because He would in effect be punishing Himself. Because God got his panties in a wad over the rebellion, He was clearly surprised by it, and thus fallable. Satan’s got a fighting chance.
60

In case the OP is still checking this thread here’s a general breakdown of the whole God/Satan/humankind thing:

In the beginning (as it pertains to us), God makes everything, because he wants company and is apparently inherently loving, and starts with the heavenly creation. Everybody gets free will. Nobody likes a slave-friend.

Afterwards, he makes the physical creation. He lets the angels take part in this, chiefly his favorite angel, Jesus. Again, everybody in this new physical creation gets free will.

At some point, at least one of the angels doubts God’s rightfulness to rule over this creation and set the boundaries of right and wrong, and decides to challenge it. This begins with Satan sneaking on down to Earth and convincing the humans that everything God told them isn’t true, that he’s holding something back from them, and that they’re better off on their own. That’s the shot that triggers the avalanche.

So at this point God has two options.

  1. Squash the rebellion entirely, and re-affirm his position as the rightful judge and creator. Squash any other rebels who pop up, since that’s the precedent that’s been set. Free will takes a big hit here…

OR

  1. Realize that the first course would still leave lingering doubt in the mind of the remaining creation (who have been created with free will and minds of their own) as to whether the rebellious ones had the right idea, and wouldn’t answer the question of whether God has the automatic right to rule, or whether his way is best, or whether his creation would serve him out of a pure unselfish motive.

    2a. This means he’s got to allow the rebellion to take place, to show all of creation that it’s not gonna work out, and this means allowing enough time to go by to try every single possible way of doing things. Thousands of years of failed governments, thousands of years of human pain and suffering, thousands of years of misguided angels losing their heavenly privileges. God doesn’t like this, much as a parent hates to see their children learn life the hard way.

    2a(1). This is how the world gets the way it is, and everything gets very muddled and confused mainly because Satan doesn’t want people to be aware of the truth, because if they were, especially at this point, they’d be pretty irritated. Plus, Satan’s got to get people to deny even his own existence, because if Satan’s real, then so is God, and that’s egg on his face.

    2b. Set up a plan to fix things after the rebellion is over, and set a time limit for it all to play out. Only he knows the timeline, otherwise it’s all pointless.

And bam, you have the general story of the world as we know it, as presented to us by the Bible, provided you read it the right way, and don’t get all nit-picky with the details. Remember, it was written by prideful, arrogant, stupid, short-lived humans who were mucking about in Satan’s world, despite the fact that God was directing them. But it gives us enough information to know that things aren’t going the way they were originally intended, and that God’s gonna fix it in his due time, and he even gives us little models to follow so we understand the situation.

Capiche? Feel free to PM me for further details if you’re actually interested. I’ll put on my helmet for the impending aethist hammershots I’ll likely receive :slight_smile: