Before I get yelled at as being a Satan-worshiper, let me assure you I am not. I just have a question about the Bible.
I know in the Bible it is said (often) that the devil or Satan or whatever his (or her?) name is, is seriously bad news.
I’m wondering if any theists out there could quote (or paraphrase) specific examples of Satan doing evil in the Bible. Not angels or God or whoever telling us he’s evil…actual examples of evil behavior.
The three that jump to my mind are:
Tempting a human to acquire knowledge
Tempting Jesus to break his fast, test God, and forsake God with the promise of inheriting all kingdoms of the earth.
Job doesn’t count, because IIRC it is God that causes his suffering, not Satan.
There has to be more evidence of how evil Satan is, other than propaganda. (Being told he is evil.) The reason I ask is that I remember reading about a religion that believes the Devil managed to pull the greatest evil by impersonating God. It was the Devil who gave the commandments, inspired the scriptures,
and cast God in the role of the Devil. They claimed that if you read the Bible from this perspective, it makes much more sense. They claimed that in the Bible, the Devil is never demonstrated to commit evil acts, but rather advocates knowledge and enlightenment, whereas God advocates unquestioning subservience.
Now, to me this sounded crazy in the extreme, and even a little offensive, but after flipping through the bible I started to wonder. Once again, I assure you I am not a Satan worshipper…truth be told, I’m an atheist.
Let me know if this is over the top or offensive…I’ll tone it down.
Not until you get to the extravagances of The Revelation does Satan get any kind of serious recognition as “the author of all evil.”
The OT has only a few very brief references to the “revolt of the angels,” and Satan isn’t involved in them. It is only later tradition that leads people to roll Satan and Lucifer into one.
(Ditto the Serpent of Genesis.)
(By the way, “The Abomination that Causes Desolation” was the statue of Zeus that the Seleucids put in the Temple in Jerusalem. The Jews of the last two centuries BCE really hated that!)
I remember hearing a theory that Satan in the Old Testament was not evil, but rather simply devil’s advocate to God. He pushed and challenged things, forcing God to adapt plans. The book of Job is a prime example of this theory, because of the dialogue between God and Satan within it.
To answer this question fully, one must first define evil to the satisfaction of everyone in this debate. Only then can we rate the extent of evil that Satan might possess.
If God can do no evil because God is God and is all powerfull, all knowing and omnipresent, then Satan, as Gods angel, can not be evil. Angels were made without free will and can only obey God, such that anything they do is done thru the will and approval of God and therefore cannot be evil.
If Devils were fallen angels that were given free wills and thereby disobey God, then they would be evil as supreme beings who act and do things that were contrary to Gods will and design. That doesnt mean they do not do things that God would approve of, they just dont do it because God told them to do so. These beings are known to inhabit a place that God does not come to. A place where there is no God that is called hell.
If Satan is the ruler of fallen angels and that his very being is the place where God will not come to, then his very being is Hell. Then he would be the ultimate evil, because he does things by his own will, not Gods.
Cite? That’s one I’ve never heard. Why, do you think, were some angels given free will and not others? And all the free will angels disobeyed? Why? If the other angels got free will, would they rebel too? Are you saying that no angel could have free will and stay an angel?
Okay, take a clone made from the spliced DNA of Carrot Top and Jerry Lewis, and put him in a Barney costume, and have him sing Muskrat Love for twelve hours straight. Satan is even more evil than that. Like, whoa.
Ellis Dee, there have been a number of Straight Dope columns written on this subject. I suggest you go to the homepage and do a search for “Devil” or “Satan.”
Why do people still see Satan as the red tailed, horned fire eater? perhaps it’s far easier for us to see it that way, than to believe in a force that we can’t see. And gee, what a great way to scare the kiddies into obeying Mom and Dad.
Temptation comes from man’s physical thought, testing the waters per se. Remember our souls were in “heaven” at one time, living in the physical world we are open to so many senses. As animalistic as we are, peaking the senses feels oh so good. Those senses out weigh our thoughts, and logical decision making. Causing us to make irrational decisions, wanting to peak the senses even more, which causes us to make irrational…well you get the picture. By staying on the path of logic and rational thinking. Keeping emotion and senses at bay, or at least to a minimum, then we can see God a bit better and make the right decisions. And keep our butts out of the hell we can so easily slide into. There’s no fire and brimstone, only a life we choose to make.Hell is what you make of life. There seems to be 2 decisions to be made for every issue presented to us. Some of us make the right choices, others don’t.
Marley23, I searched for both “The Devil” and “Satan” in the discussions and found virtually nothing. (Is there some sort of date filter on by default?) I’ll check the columns, but I was actually hoping for specific examples from the bible. Got any links?
Eolbo, my head just about exploded when I read an interview with her. “McCarthy was just misunderstood…”
I just figure the fundies think Satan is evil because he’s gay…
Seriously, I don’t think there’s really very much in the Bible. It just wasn’t in the Hebrew tradition, and while it might be more in the Greek tradition, but you don’t really see it in the New Testament either.
Ellis Dee: I don’t mean searching this message board. However, we’ve certainly discussed that here before. The problem might be the parameters you are searching with. If it’s set to “yesterday,” you’re not going to come up with much. Try a longer span of time.
However, what I actually meant was that you should go to the Straight Dope homepage, or more directly, to the search engine. Type in Satan or Devil or Lucifer or whatever you like and you’ll find plenty of stuff.
So are all atheists tied for ultimate evil? Am I just as evil as Hitler simply because I am motivated by my own will?
So we should deny ourselves pleasure, deny our emotions, and make ourselves numb to the world, all so we can avoid hell? That sounds like hell to me right there.