Wouldn’t God have known he was going to make those choices before creating him? How is knowingly creating an entity who will bring evil into the world any different than creating evil directly?
BTW, where does the Bible say that God created Satan?
Also, what would Satan’s motive be in resisting God? Why would Satan choose to fight a a battle he knows he can’t win? Why would he choose the lake of fire?
Not as evil as Pat Buchanan, but a little more evil than Leona Helmsley.
The claim that the book of Job shouldn’t count because it was God who caused his suffering is not valid in my view.
Quoting from the New Jerusalem version of the bible (only because the language is more modern) Job was simply the bunny in a bet made by two rivals, Jahweh and Satan, on whether or not Job, reputedly an incredibly devout and God fearing man, could be provoked into denouncing God.
Yahweh claimed he could not and Satan held a contrary view. So it was put up or shut up time.
Chapter 2 of the book of Job, just prior to Satan’s (not Yahweh’s) second try at making Job’s life an absolute living hell, reveals the casual and informal nature of the relationship between Jahweh and Satan:
“Once again the sons of God came to attend on Yahweh, and among them was Satan.
So Yahweh said to Satan, ‘Where have you been?’
‘Round the earth,’ he answered ‘roaming about.’
So Yahweh asked him, ‘Did you notice my servant, Job? There is no one like him on the earth: as sound and honest man who fears God and shuns evil. His life continues blameless as ever; in vain you provoked me to ruin him.’
‘Skin for skin!’ Satan replied. A man will give away all he has to save his life. But stretch out your hand and lay a finger on his bone and flesh; I warrant you, he will curse you to your face.’
'Very well.'Yahweh said to Satan ‘he is in your power. But spare his life.’
So Satan left the presence of Yahweh.”
Next thing we know, Satan struck down Job with all kinds of horrible afflictions, and shortly after, convincingly wins the bet he had with Yahweh.
As to who was the more evil (more nasty, really) of the two, Yahweh or Satan, I’d say it was a draw. However, Chapter 38 onwards of Job clearly reveals Yahweh to be a braggart of the worst kind and explains why he acted like a sore loser.
I didn’t say to deny ourselves of emotions and senses, but to keep them at bay, or in check. So many people make decisions based on feelings, and not logic. Sure we can fall in love to our hearts content, cry, laugh, what have you. However, letting the emotions do the choosing, only makes for bad decisions.
I love my children more than anything in the world, but with that love comes many days of parenting. If not for logic and rational thinking, those kids would be walking all over me. This is true for many other issues and situations.
If Satan punishes people for being evil then surely he’s doing a good thing no? I dont believe in either deity but I do see God and the Devil as a metaphor for the balance between right and wrong and both are equally important in my mind. I’ve got to say though that if all the things that the bible says will send you to hell are true pretty much everyone will be there. I dont know what ‘coverting my neighbours ass’ means but i’m sure i’m guilty of it…she’s pretty hot.
How about this: If Satan was expelled from heaven for opposing God’s will, and people who oppose God’s will in this world go to Hell (Satan’s crib) when they kick it, then WHY would Satan torture/rape/immolate/violate etc. the inhabitants of Hell. It seems illogical that Old Nick would be hostile towards those who share his point of view. It stands to reason that, if the Devil is preparing for a final assault against the Pearly Gates, then he would be quite affable to the denizens of Hades (in the hopes of getting them to enlist in his army).
Ellis there are certain doctrines and schools of Jewish Qabalah/Kabbalah/Cabala that envision the serpent (not Satan) and a bringer of enlightenment. IIRC the Zohar has something to say about that. You also might want to check Sepher Yetzirah.
Whether it was God or Satan who afflicted Job, it was still ultimately God’s decision. God allowing Satan to do it is no different than God doing it himself. He can’t escape responsibility that easy. Inviting Satan to kill Job’s children (in order to win a bet) is just as despicible as God doing it himself.
It also doesn’t make sense for an omniscient being to have to “test” Job’s loyalty. Wouldn’t God already have perfect knowledge of Job’s loyalty?
And, of course, since God created Satan in the first place, God is ultimately responsible for everything Satan does (as God is omniscient/omnipotent).
Hmm, there’s another one I never got.
The balance between right and wrong, what the hell is that?
For every good act there must be a bad one? For what?
What balance? The universe isn’t set of scales, as far as I can tell.
Ellis, if your set up is as mine, the default search will only look for posts from “yesterday and younger” - correct this and you should get plenty of hits. (Apologies if this is irrelevant.)
God’s test of Job’s loyalty was a way for Job to prove it to himself just how loyal he was.
What if Satan is simply God’s opponent in a cosmic game of tennis? E.g., it’s all just friendly sport to them?
(Not that I believe in either God nor Satan, but it’s a fun supposition to play with.)
If I recall correctly, that is not what is recorded. In fact, Job took the abuse for a while, then sat up one day and said to God, “What the hell is going on here? You’re my God; I loved you, so why is this happening?” And God said, “Don’t you trust me? I said everything would work out in the end. Don’t question me.” And Job said, “Ok, its your show.”. And God was pleased and gave Job all he had lost twice over.
Come to think of it, it may be I simply didn’t recall the whole boook of Job, but the question of who won or lost was never answered, which may be an implication that the wager is still going on.
I cant give you a cite. Its from a book, “The Book of the Secrets of Enoch” try amazon.com, its a nice read.
Not all angels that were given free will disobeyed. Having free will does not mean automatic rebellion. It means they can make a choice, and the fallen made a choice to disobey God. BTW Fallen angels are still angels.
No, not believing in God or being motivated by your own free will is not the same as knowing God and still disobeying God. Having free will is not evil.
Hell is the absense of God. Its is not a place but a state of being. You can have pleasure and emotions and still be with God. You can even not believe in God but still be with God.
cant comment on God’s state of mind, motives or intentions. I would have to be God to do that. God can do no evil.
The Bible doesnt. It is in the Book of Enoch and the Kaballah. theres a lot of confusion about who is Satan (the temptor) and Lucifer (the Fallen star)
Again, the entity that chose to defy God was Lucifer (not satan) and again I cannot comment on the the state of mind of a being that was written to be second to God in Power. The Pit was chosen by God to punish those angels that disobeyed God. The minions of Lucifer still walk the earth. 2 separate groups of fallen.
Because fallen angels do not follow the commands of God, so in hell, they can pretty much do what they want to do and none who are damned can say otherwise. You say its not fair? why do you think its called Hell?
The final assault will occur on Judgement day when the pit is opened to let loose the fallen. In a battle among angels, whats a few souls of men going to do? thats like the US army getting in the way of a fight between the Hulk and Superman.
Yeah. Unfortunately, we’re the ball.
Uh huh…yeah. That’s worth killing his kids for… :rolleyes:
So what? if his kids went straight to heaven, what is that so bad?
You’re evading the question. If God created the devil then God created evil. There is no logical way out of that box.
Satan does not appear in the book of Enoch. “Lucifer” doesn’t exist in either Hebrew or Christian scripture. The image of Lucifer as a “fallen star” has its roots in a passage from Isaiah 14:2 which reads (in Hebrew): “How you have fallen from the heavens, Heylel, son of the dawn!”
This was a reference to Baylonian King who had persecuted the Jews. “heylel” translates to something like “shining one” and was a term used for Venus, the shining star which heralded the dawn.
The author was comparing the significance of the king of Baylon to God by using the allegory of the morning star to the Sun. The king only seemed momentarily “bright” but would soon fade to nothingness in the light of God.
In the Greek Septuagint, “heylel” was translated as “Eosphoros” or “bringer of dawn,” the Greek word for Venus. St. Jerome translated “Eosphoros” to the Latin “Lucifer” (from “Luce Ferre”-- “light bringer.”)
The KJV used Jerome’s Vulgate when translating to English and they left “Lucifer” in Latin instead of properly translating it to “Venus” or “morning star.” They also translated the plural “heavens” to the singular “heaven” producing the following: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!”
Leaving Lucifer in Latin makes it look like the name of an individual 9which it wasn’t) and changing “heavens” to “heaven” gives a more metaphysical sense to the phrase. Over the centuries Christians began to conflate “Lucifer” with “Satan” and to infer a “fallen angel” status where none was implied.
Ironically, Jesus is twice referred to in the New Testament as the morning star (one of those times by Jesus, himself).
Again, there is no “Lucifer” in scripture. No “fallen angel” who defied God. There are Angels in the book of Enoch, an pseudogriphical work, which elaborates on the story of the Nephalim in Genesis. None of the Angels in Enoch are called either Satan or Lucifer, and Enoch is not an official part of scripture anyway, so why are you taking it seriously?
To which I would add, Diogenes, that if god is omniscient, he knew from the beginning about all the evil the devil would do, which makes the whole thing premeditated evil on god’s part.
This has always struck me as really problematic. God can kill whoever he likes, and it’s not evil because god is doing it. Even though it’s recognized that people are not supposed to kill other people (it’s evil, because god commanded that we can’t do it). The “if they go to heaven, so it’s not so bad” rationale HAS to go out the window, otherwise, why have a commandment against killing in the first place?
Scary, scary reasoning, in my opinion. And a lot of people who kill, of course, say that they did so because god told them to. How can we judge or punish these people if god can do no evil? How can we try to judge, with our inadequate human understanding, if they were really divinely instructed to kill? And even worse, it’s impossible for us to know the mind of god, so we can’t know if the killing is really wrong or evil. After all, if god instructed it, it can’t be evil, and we can’t be on a level plan to judge that.
I never said there was a logical way out of the box. Logic is a constraint of the human mind to understand the things around him. God does not have that limitation. What I cannot understand nor explain to another human being doesnt mean it is an impossibility to God.
Someone here asked me where I got it, so I answered. Why am I taking it seriously? Its one of the main references with which we get all these demon and fallen angel mythos (with some abberations as you have eloquently explained) You forgot certain books from the Kaballah which does name all the angels, their heirarchy and their place in the heavens. That is also not part of official scripture in both the judeic and christian religions. Its just where most of the mythos comes from.
BTW, all angels are male. They are asexual amongst themselves so asterion’s supposition that they are gay is false. The first fallen that produced the Nephalim were sent to the pit. They “defiled” demselves with the daughters of man, which disproves their gay aspect. The defiance of the “fallen star” (in latin to be Lucifer) came afterwards. No mention that they were sent to the pit with the others.
Only christians believe Satan to be the king of evil. I believe that the jews regard Satan as the tester of men, a faithful servant of God and not evil at all.
Why is it ok for God to kill people but not ok for human beings to do it. Well, God does have dominion over life and death, God does determine where souls go after death. Everyone dies anyway so the disposition of the eternal soul would be more important than the temporary mortal body. No human being has that power therefore there is a commandment against humans taking a human life. If you believe you can kill people because you have God’s authority to do so, you will have to take that up with God come judgment day. Humans will stop you based on your lack of evidence to prove your authority from God. If you can prove it to me beyond a shadow of a doubt, I’d let you kill anyone you like but if I doubt you, i will stop you.
If a parent tells his child not to jump off the roof because he cant fly like the people he sees on TV, it doesnt matter that the child doesnt understand why people on TV can fly and he cant. If the people on TV tells the child to go jump off the roof, the child must obey his parent or he will be hurt or even die. Ultimately it is still the choice of the child, but his lack of understanding should not make him question his parent.
My (incredibly heretical) viewpoint, assuming that ancient Hebrew myth has some basis in reality, runs more or less as follows:
(or “This may be true. Don’t bet your soul on it:”)
This seems to me consistent with some (not all) of the Judeo-Christian Biblical mentions of Satan. Of course, since Christianity was humanist/anthropocentric from very early on, the Christian literature tends to see this (admittedly misanthropic) angel as evil by definition, thus leading to his misportrayal as the source of evil & enemy of God. Obviously I’m not taking John’s Apocalypse as inerrant.