Well, here’s the thing: I don’t have to prove it to you. As you said, “If a parent tells his child not to jump off the roof because he cant fly like the people he sees on TV, it doesnt matter that the child doesnt understand why people on TV can fly and he cant. If the people on TV tells the child to go jump off the roof, the child must obey his parent or he will be hurt or even die. Ultimately it is still the choice of the child, but his lack of understanding should not make him question his parent.”
Likewise, your lack of understanding shouldn’t make you question me.
Well that would be true if you were my parent, which you are not. You are my brother and the fact that you say that our parent gave us permission to jump off the roof doesnt jibe with the fact that our parent didnt tell me any such thing. So you can jump off the roof if you think you must. I will try to stop you especially if you try to take me with you. When our parent confronts the both of us, I will take responsibility for trying to stop you and you can take responsibility for jumping off the roof.
Yeah, now I’m remembering a bunch of different things from the brain-food channels after having read through the rest of the thread. IIRC, the serpent is universally regarded as the bringer of light in all disciplines except christianity. It’s even the symbol of modern medicine. Quetzecuatl (sp?) is another good example. The fact that the bible turns the serpent into the instrument of evil was one of the stronger points of the “Satan faked christians out” argument.
The reason I brought it up is because I just watched Usual Suspects again recently, and every time I see Kevin Spacey say “the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing man he doesn’t exist,” I always think “the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was getting 2 billion people to worship him.”
My favorite example of the God-Satan switcheroo is when David takes a census. Correct me if I’m wrong, Christians, but IIRC the story goes:
Satan comes to King David and says to him “How do you know how strong your army is? You better take a head count so you can be a competent leader.” So David takes a census. Upon finishing the census, God kills 15,000 of David’s people as retribution for taking a census. Nice guy, this God.
Seriously, does anybody have an explanation for this story? I’ve never heard any interpretation of it at all. Every person I’ve asked has had a frighteningly similar answer: “I try not to pay too much attention to the old testament.”
This analogy is getting ridiculously overextended. But I don’t think your post actually addresses what I said. If I’m taking my instructions to kill from god, I’m acting on behalf of the ‘parent,’ and since we are not required or able to understand god, I don’t know why I’d have to explain myself to you.
Are you saying that symbols can’t be used for different things? One culture can’t use the snake as a symbol of malice, while the other one is using it as a symbol of good? Sorry, but I find that mind-boggling in its weirdness. Why in the world should that be a “strong point?”
Just think of the various things that, oh, say, rats symbolize in various cultures–or even the same culture–just off the top of my head: evil, filth, intelligence, wealth, and greed. There are others.
In the OT, Moses uses a staff with a serpent on it to sustain the Israelites during a battle. In that case, the serpent symbolizes life, for the Israelites are supposed to look at the staff, and live (although some refuse, so they die). The Bible gives snakes both good and bad connotations. Symbols have this tendency to do that.
Whoops, sorry, the Israelites are dying not in a battle, but because firey serpents have been sent to bite them to bring them to repentance. Looking at the brazen serpent healed them.
genie goes off to bonk herself on the head with a Bible 40 times
btw, one of the Hebrew words used in reference to the Fiery Serpents & the Brazen Serpent… “Seraph”
I looked this up, and my book has this to say: “Authorities have interpreted this to mean that David was about to launch his people into an imperialistic expansion and this was why God counted it a great evil. Even Joab who was commanded to make the census objected.” It cites Clarke’s Bible Commentary, so you may want to take a look.
FriarTed–interesting!
genie, I have no cite about the serpent thing, so I retract. It made sense when I saw it, but your refutation makes more sense. Come to think of it, I think it was one of those Graham Hancock “Ancient Civilization” specials, so allow me to publicly flog myself for citing anything based on him here.
As far as the Census thing, now I gotta go get my Bible, because IIRC the KJV makes no mention of intent. Hang on…Hmmm, I see your point about Joab complaining.
Okay, I guess I can buy your explanation, but this story gets crazier every time I come back to it:
I Chronicles 20
Joab leads David’s army to victory over Ammon.
David takes the King’s crown, and pillages the city.
David has the conquered people cut up with saws and axes. (nice)
Then there was a war with the Philistines.
Then there was another war with the Philistines.
Then there was a war at Gath.
I Chronicles 21
Satan “provoked David to number Israel.”
David tells Joab to take a census. Joab reluctantly complies.
In response, God kills seventy thousand (70,000) people
So, to be clear, you are saying that after four wars, during which David has ruthlessly offered no quarter, God preemptively kills 70,000 people so that David won’t wage a war? Not even trying to get my head around that concept, why doesn’t God grant David free will?
You know what? Never mind. I’m only reminded of why I don’t believe in these wacky myths.
Apparently the borders of Israel had been prophesied since Abraham’s day. Once those borders were reached, David wasn’t allowed to go any further.
Im sorry, but i was hoping you would get the anaolgy. You are not God, therefore we have only your word that God is speaking to you because God didnt speak to us or showed us any sign to confirm your word. We will obey God even without understanding Gods ways. I will have my doubts whether or not you are actually acting on behalf of God, and until you convince me otherwise I will proceed under the the previous instructions I know came from God which you are currently contradicting.
You dont have to explain things to me if you are just following Gods orders for yourself, but when you involve me or others that I may care for, then I will confront you or at the very least ask for a sign that you really are acting in behalf of God. Scripture says that I may not test the Lord My God but theres no rule against testing his messenger.