Does the deaf, dumb, and blind boy get into heaven?

As the rock opera Tommy suggests, there would be problems with such a person in traditional Christian theology.

He doesn’t know about Jesus, he doesn’t know how to pray, he couldn’t be “born again” for you protestant evangelicals, he doesn’t know about the connection between physical and spiritual phenomenon.

What would save this boy from eternal damnation when all his senses are removed from him, when he cannot detect the world around him and cannot apply reason to it?

For a real-world example, what if Helen Keller had never developed a way to communicate to the sighted and hearing?

Most mainstream Christian thought allows for the salvation of those who never hear about Christ through no fault of their own.

Helen Keller was an atheist IIRC.

Depends. Is he a pinball wizard?

What was probably more important was that Anne Sullivan found a way to communicate with her first.

Being deprived of sight and hearing does not mean that you can’t grasp abstract concepts.

Traditional? No, only in that newfangled Western-style stuff that was invented when, last week or something like that.

In Orthodox Christian soteriology, there is no problem for such a person, as we are each to be judged according to our ability.

Not true. There is a concept called “the age of reckoning” (I believe that’s what it’s called) spoken of in the Bible. I’ve always heard that this applies to all parties who cannot comprehend Christ. This would mean children, 3rd world citizens who have never heard of Christ, the mentally retarded, etc.

I’m not saying that the interpretation is true, but it’s by no means “newfangled.”

You utterly reversed what I meant. Just how did you do that? What I called “newfangled” is the idea that one must make conscious assent in order to be saved, WITH NO EXCEPTIONS.

You’re right, I did. My apologies.

Poor reading comprehension skills I suppose.

Where?

Those who never heard about Jesus/God/The Bible are judged as not knowing the law. This is the same principle as the man on the deserted island somewhere. So this isn’t an issue with my traditional theology.

Wow, did a blind, deaf and dumb person tell you this? Ok, sorry, but I would think, although I wouldn’t be willing to die for this belief, that someone in this situation would understand it more. We are the ones who have a hard time seeing the connection b/t the physical and spiritual because we tend to have to see to believe.

So, if you never hear about Jesus/God/whatnot you are judged as not knowing the law.

So, if I’m a decent person but don’t know the law, am I saved? But if I knew the law and didn’t obey parts, I wouldn’t be?

So, when Christians try to spread the word about the law, they are more likely to get me damned than saved, aren’t they?

Julie

I believe that this issue was adequately handled on an episode of South Park.

It was the one where the boys learned about hell, and they were worried that Timmy couldn’t go to heaven because he couldn’t confess.
Cartman became an evangelist and made a bunch of money.

In the end, I think it turned out that Timmy could go to heaven.

And why are you trying to trap Christianity? You know that people don’t have the answer to this question, only God does (assuming he exists) So don’t bother with the question till you get to heaven.

Yeah, but sooner or later, you do learn about the law. You might be dead by then, but you still get to learn about it and choose between good and evil–according to us Mormons, anyhow. And no one obeys all the law; that’s what repentance is for.

(Rex, I don’t know if you saw, but I finally answered your questions in the Pit thread.)

But I don’t need to repent if I didn’t sin, do I? And I can’t sin if I don’t make a choice, can I?

So, introducing “the law” to me turns me into a sinner. If I live precisely the same life after someone attempts to educate me as I did before, I am now a sinner, right?

So, by proselytizing, the person could be damning me.

Julie

“For all have sinned…” Romans 3:23

“All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law…” Romans 2:12a

“…and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law” Romans 2:12b

damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

Anybody Can Know the Truth:

“Jesus said, ‘If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free’” (John 8:31,32).

“The discerning heart seeks knowledge” (Proverbs 15:14).

“’seek, and you will find’” (Matthew 7:7).

“’the Spirit of truth…will guide you into truth. ….the Spirit will…make it known to you.’” (John 16:13,15).

“’Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled.’” (Matthew 5:6).

“But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” (Deuteronomy 4:29).

Anybody can accept the truth: Jesus, the way to heaven:

“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the world.” (1 John 2:2).

“’For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son’” (John 3:17-18).

“’small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.’” (Matthew 7:14).

“’I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.’” (John 10:9).

“Thomas said to him, ‘Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?’ Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me’” (John 14:5-6).

So, it is your claim that if someone doesn’t accept Jesus they will not be saved?

Julie

Y’know, I once came across a truly sick and twisted individual. He was of the opinion that all aborted babies were automatically damned, as they had no opportunity to be proselytized. He called them “collateral damage” in the war of the Saved against the evil conspiracy that runs our world.

There are some really scary bastiges out there…

Not my claim. Jesus said, “No one comes to the Father except through me”

I don’t know much about theology, but I do know The Who.

Tommy’s soul was never in peril, despite the fears of his family. He was a true innocent, and his heart was pure. While everyone else was being distracted by the material world and their sensory input, Tommy was achieving inner peace, spiritual enlightenment, and all that lovely hippie stuff.

Probably the best description we get of Tommy’s inner world comes in “Amazing Journey”. In this song we hear of a mysterious man with a golden beard who serves as a leader and guide. The lyrics leave ample room for interpretation, and one could certainly take them to mean that this man was Jesus if one were so inclined. I am unware of any Christian doctrine saying that Jesus can’t somehow reach out to the hearts, minds, or souls of the severely disabled.

No, there is the age of accountability that may be “the age of reckoning” and this is shown by the fact that Jesus said, “Suffer the children to come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” So I personally believe that this person who can’t speak, hear or see may fall under that.

So without Jesus, there is no life, and punishment for sins. Now what if you’ve never heard the commandments? Then your conscience will accuse you. God has written the law on our hearts. Now hearing, you will be required to give a greater account, but you may also find the good news of the gospel.

If a person doesn’t have these senses, surely they can’t lose their innocence because they can’t be corrupted by the world? Just like a baby.