Again, IF THE GUYS WHO CARRY 0311 AS THEIR PRIMARY MOS RECEIVE NO MORE TRAINING THAN THOSE WHO DO NOT, THEN I WILL ACCEPT THAT ALL MARINES ARE QUALIFIED TO BE RIFLEMEN/INFANTRYMEN/0311. Otherwise, it’s just propaganda, and the fact that the Commandant of the Corps is spreading the propaganda does nothing to establish its validity.
Are all Marines qualified to be combatants? Yes. Absolutely. Can they pick up a rifle and perform at a level above that of the vast majority of people? Fine. But they’re not that MOS unless and until they’ve gone through all the training that other members of that MOS go through.
Sgt. J: You evidently misread my post. I asked if the person’s PMOS was 0311. As you should know, just because every Marine receives Basic Combat Training, not every Marine carries the PMOS of 0311. Every Soldier receives BCT, but not every Soldier carries the PMOS of 11B. It’s called BASIC for a reason.
You don’t think the Commandant of The Marine Corps is qualified to decide what level of training qualifies you to be a Marine Rifleman? Who has to say “Every Marine is a Rifleman” before you will believe it? I thought the four-star General in command of the entire US Marine Corps was sufficient.
It’s still propaganda, Sgt. J. Hussein said his armies were the strongest in the world. Hitler said his Reich would last a thousand years.
I am not in any way comparing the Commandant of the Corps substantively to Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler, merely illustrating that propaganda from a high-level source is still propaganda.
If every Marine who has gone through Basic and MCT is a Rifleman, then why do Riflemen who carry it as a primary MOS have to go through additional training?
I’ve been quoted way out of context! There was a lot more to what I said than:
and it sure didn’t add up to:
I think that possibly what Alessan said about being paid less and not getting time off, etc. and the need for the pride of saying you are an infantryman in the Army, may be entering in here. But that has nothing to do with the Marines. We are small enough to be a family. Inside the Corps. “03” is given respect, but even an “03” will tell someone from outside that "Every Marine is a rifleman.
Also:
I was in a Marine Air Support Squadron. We would be set up close to the front lines and could conceivably be over-run easily. My MOS was that of a Forward Air Observer, which meant I would be very close to the front lines. So it makes sense that we would be trained and conditioned to believe that we could handle a rifle. The Corps doesn’t want anyone yelling “Oh, Shit! Here they come. What are we going to do?”
So we’re coming from different paradigms. I can understand why the Army would want their infantrymen to think they are the best. But you have to understand that a Marine is not taught that way. You can argue until you’re blue in the face :(, but when Sgt. J quotes the Commandant of the Marine Corps as saying:
there’s not a Marine alive that is going to listen to the contrary.
“Maybe it’s technically more appropriate to say “Rifleman” than 0311”
According to the CMC, all Marines are Rifleman. Since the Marine MOS for Rifleman is “0311” many Marines (including the Marines in my old Infantry unit) say “We’re all 0311” to paraphrase “Every Marine a Rifleman”
See, I think it does. THAT has always been my objection to the “Every Marine is a rifleman” thing – not any sense of pride in the Army (I’m a personnel officer, for gods’ sake), but from a sense that I think I’d have were I an actual full-time Marine rifleman. What “Every Marine is a rifleman” means to me is that every Marine is capable of performing the duties of that guy down in an infantry squad. So why are there full-time riflemen at all? Just let the pilots and clerks and cooks do it while they’re not busy piloting and clerking and cooking.
If I were told, over and over again, that my job, which I performed very day to the best of my abilities, were some kind of default setting, and they could plug anyone in the entire Marine Corps into my job with little to no loss of ability, that would kind of piss me off.
Sadam Hussien isn’t the arbiter of who the best army in the world is. The Commandant of The Marine Corps IS CERTAINLY the arbiter of who qualifies as a Marine Rifleman.
Being fully trained and qualifies to do a job in no way makes you as good as someone with daily experience in that job. That’s why we have the “seniority” concept. BUT>>> just because someone was given more training and has more experience doesn’t mean you are not quailified for the position.
I have been a Canvasser/Recruiter, and I’ll tell you straight-up: A lying recruiter is a useless recruiter. And a busted recruiter, too, if they keep up at it. When a recruiter lies, his (or her) applicants come back and tell their buddies, or send a note home, or make phone calls. Once the word-of-mouth is out, that particular recruiter may as well pack bags for the fleet, 'cause they’re never getting another contract in that town again. Further, lying to recruits is contrary to written poilicy and the UCMJ. Ever hear of “Defective Enlistment”? That’s a “go-home-you’re-free-of-all-obligations-and-your-recruiter-is-going-in-front-of-the-Green-Table” condition. It happens almost never. Lying recruiters don’t just hurt an individual recruiter, either. They damage the prospects of the service they represent, and the milirtary as a whole, thereby jeapordizing the miltary’s ability to perform it’s core mission: Provide National Security. It’s not tollerated.
Absolutely, a recruiter will put the best possible spin on the service, but (save for a few idjiits) always within well defined bounds. The vast majority of “my recruiter lied” cases turn out to be cases of kids that simply didn’t listen to everything they were told. Congressional investigation after Congressional investigation bears this out.
The Navy drill for recruiting is: Sell the kids a blue shirt, a grey ship, and a wide ocean. If they take that to mean anything alse, it had better be in writing, or it isn’t so.
From what I’ve gathered from this thread (And please, someone correct me if I’m wrong), it sounds like once a Marine finishes boot camp, they have met the minimum qualifications for 0311/Rifleman (And that is the primary reason for the Marine Corps having a longer boot camp than other services). Of course someone whos primary MOS is 0311 would get more training in their field afterwards, just as everyone else would (Duh, you don’t stop training and practicing just because you’ve reached the minimum qualifications), but that just means they’ll be better at it. Same as how some veteran unit who’s members have all been through numerous battles would be better than a unit composed of relatively green recruits. But (And this is my understanding from this thread), every Marine is expected to maintain the basic skills that would qualify them for 0311. While they wouldn’t necessarily be as good at it as someone whos primary MOS -was- 0311, it doesn’t seem like it would be any more insulting to those who are 0311 to say that they can perform as rifleman, than it would be to call that green unit and that veteran unit both infantry units.
Perhaps this will shed a bit of light on the issue. Every Marine has received training to be a basic Rifleman, just as every Soldier has received training to be a basic Infantryman. On the other hand, only those Marines who carry the 0311 (and related) MOS are damn good Rifleman just as only those Soldiers who carry the 11B (and related) MOS are damn good Infantryman. In other words, not all Marines are in the Infantry and not all Soldiers are in the Infantry. BUT they can fill in when needed. That is not the same as saying that every Marine has a PMOS of 0311. Looking at the CMC’s statement, I noticed he didn’t say that all Marines hadd that MOS, but that they all were Rifleman.
BTW, before wising up and joining the Navy, I did a stint in the Army. PMOS was 75B2L and thus knowing what and how MOS were assigned was part of my Army duties.
I disagree with Monty because I don’t believe that in the Army you get as extensive training in being infantry as you do in the Marines. You do not have to qualify on the range every year, etc. like the Marines have to. And (this is the important part) you are not indoctrinated like the Marines are. That is what we are taught, that is what we believe, that is what we live by. Let the Army do it their way, let the Air Force do it their way and even let the Navy do it their way.
Phoenix Dragon has gotten a good handle on it, so why can’t you others who have served in the military? That to me answers itself. :rolleyes:
I am willing and I think perhaps the other Marines who have posted are willing to let you have your points. As for myself, we are all rifleman. Period.
Tranq: I remember well one individual at NAF Atsugi who was fond of saying his Recruiter lied to him. He said that in front of me one day at the PSD where I was assigned and, since my PNSN (I was the supervising PN1 at the time) was reviewing his service record with him, I stepped in and asked him, “Do you have any proof of that?”
The Sailor said he didn’t. I then asked him to show me on his enlistment contract where he signed the statement that no other conditions other than what was written on said contract applied to his enlistment. He said he knew what he signed. Since the individual was a Petty Officer Second Class at the time, I felt it appropriate to show him that going around telling fibs about his Recruiter in front of the Non-Rates wasn’t really a good leadership trait.
What you sign is what counts. NOT what you dreamed or wished the Recruiter promised. Thanks for pointing out the realities of the Recruiting world.
First, of course we need a Marine Corps. Otherwise, who would keep the sailors in line?
Second. Of course every Marine is a rifleman. So is every soldier, in the sense that both have been trained to shoot a rifle and have met minimum standards to be trusted with live ammunition. Even Oliver North, for Pete’s sake, was trained to fire a rifle.
Third, the Marines at the Argonne in WWI were a brigade of an army division of Marine and Regular Army regiments. As soon as the army built up strength the Marine brigade was withdrawn.
Fourth, there is an old joke that the eleventh man in a Marine rifle squad is a press agent. The USMC has for years been engaged in a public relations campaign to preserve its existence. There is a flashy uniform. You have clean limbed young knights errant killing dragons and firm jawed young lieutenants flashing oriental sabers. The message is: want a neat suit? Want a sword? Want to play dungeons and dragons for real? Be a Marine. The message that no one wants to give, and is known by every old Marine and every old soldier, involves dying in the mud with your intestines in your hand and vomiting blood.
Perception is everything. Reality is seldom pleasant.
0311 is not the primary MOS of all Marines. A primary MOS is what you do for a living. 0311 is basically a specialized rifleman. It is more accurate to say that all Marines are 0300 (Infantry). If you go through Avionics training, your MOS is 6300 (Avionics Man). Then you go through specialized training for what your job is going to be, say 6311 (Com/Nav). All Marines are trained as basic rifleman. Then some move on to more specialized infantry training. If you complete medical school and decide to go into accounting instead, you are still a doctor. No, you aren’t as good as a doctor who went into specialized training, or is working as an attending someplace, but you still have the basic skills to serve in the position should it ever be required. Are all Marines 0311? Technically no, because 0311 is a specialized MOS. But all Marines are basic rifleman, meaning just that. They have received, and must maintain, the general knowledge and skills to serve as a basic infantryman should it ever be required. Why would it be required? It’s nice to know that if the crapola hits the fan, you can toss a rifle to the cook and tell him to put down grazing fire on the left flank without having to explain anything. The annual rifle qualifications and battle skills testing are more than just checking a box. The scores are used in promotions. At meritorious board promotions, the questions asked do not relate to your specific MOS, but rather are infantry related.
As far as an earlier comment on how the Marines require outside groups such as Special Forces, SEALS, etc., this is not true. The Marines use their own special forces units, Battalion Recon and Force Recon. They generally don’t get much press because that’s the way they want it. They work alone, as well as in cooperation with SF and SEALS and are quite often used by the other services. They, like the USMC in general, operate under different requirements and have similar but different missions and capabilities than the other services.
Does the U.S. still need Marines? It depends on how you define “need”. Nobody “needs” a car alarm, gun, pepper spray, a good frying pan, a dog, clean underwear or toilet paper but every so often, you are awfully glad that you have them around, or wish you had.
It won’t be the Marines! They’re too busy being sea sick.
The same goes for all the services. Budget wars, turf disputes, etc, have been part and parcel of the military ever since there was more than one kind of soldier.
Actually, the mission is to put the other poor SOB in the mud with his guts in his hands. Trouble is, the other guy has the same mission, and sometimes he wins.
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