I ask this because my computer has been crashing a lot lately because of heat.
When I first built this computer, it would run at idle at about 85 degrees, and when stressed, would go up to about 120. I’ve had it for about a year and a half, and temperatures seemed to generally increase over time, but they haven’t become a problem until recently.
Now, my computer idles around 110-120, and when stressed, will go up to 140+, and if stressed heavily, will consistently crash when it gets above 145 or so.
I have better cooling in my case now (I put a desktop fan sitting on the video card sucking out air from the CPU, which sucks out a lot of air… so the venting is good, and that seems to have delayed the crashes a bit, but it will still crash.
I’m assuming that over time the thermal paste has eroded, or worn away, or something. Is this likely?
It’s an thunderbird/athlon, btw, and the thermal paste is whatever stuff AMD puts on their retail CPUs.
Oh: also, can I use any thermal grease on the cpu, or do I need cpu-specific thermal paste? (I’m wondering if there’s some corrosiveness factor involved or something).
Thermal paste can dry up over time, which may lead to the symptoms you are describing. It can depend on the quality of the thermal paste. (BTW, I hope the temperatures you are experiencing are in degrees Fahrenheit, not Celsius :)). Check out this review of thermal compounds for some background information, as well as a comparison of thermal goop with Vegemite and toothpaste.
AMD (and other) manufacturers do not usually supply thermal compound - it comes with the heat sink that the machine assembler provides. Cheaper heat sinks often have a pad of gum-like compound attached to the base of the sink, which is usually a single-use item. If you remove your heat sink to apply some thermal compound, make sure that you clean the heat sink in a non-destructive way. Many cheaper heat sinks have an aluminium base which is easily scratched with a screwdriver. The small scratches can significantly reduce the effectiveness of the heat sink - the only way to fix it is to sand it with very fine wet and dry, on a sheet of glass or similarly very smooth material. Put the new goop on the cpu, not on the heat sink, and only use as much as you need to cover it as thinly as possible. Spread it round with something hard and straight, like a credit card or (what I use) an oil painting palette knife.
In Dan’s review linked to above, toothpaste was more efficient than dedicated thermal goop (!), but of course you wouldn’t use it, as it would dry and evaporate very quickly. Generally, thermal grease is thermal grease - there is no need to use CPU specific stuff. Any old goop from your local electronics store will do. There’s no corrosive factor that I’m aware of - the stuff is silicon based, so it’s fairly inert. It’s really hard to remove from your clothes, so don’t squirt it around too much, or work naked.
I had similar experiences to yours on a 1.4 Ghz Athlon - in the end the thing would idle at about 90 degrees Celsius - just a bit short of boiling water! I fixed the problem by buying another heat sink, and properly applying some goop. Idle temperature is now 55 degrees Celsius - still warm, but well within the limits specified by AMD, who cite 90 degrees Celsius as the top runnable temperature for the Thunderbird.
I suggest that both of you buy a better heatsink/fan combo. You can get a very decent one for around $30. And while you’re at it, go ahead and pick up a tube of Arctic Silver thermal compound for another $10.
I’ve got a CoolerMaster HHC-001 heatsink/fan and a careful application of Arctic Silver and they keep my T-bird 1.2 down to about 40° under load. And I’m even overclocking.
I’m sure you’ll find it worth the expense in terms of stability and long CPU life.
Well, it doesn’t have me too worried :). The machine was quite stable at 90ish, and it’s like a rock at 55. I only bothered to change to a new heat sink because the numbers were a bit high, not because of any stability problems.
If you had a look at that link I posted, you would have noticed that Arctic Silver is no more efficient than any other goop, and that toothpaste was more efficient!
I don’t believe that CPU life is affected either. Theoretically, maybe, but practically, no. I have never seen a CPU that doesn’t work, except where there is obvious physical damage. Running the chip at a little over half the maximum rated temperature will have no effect on the life of the chip - they’re designed to run at that temperature, and they don’t wear out!
The heat sink I’m using now is a standard 4 inch fan shrouded down to a CPU size heat sink. The larger fan can turn more slowly for the same rate of air flow, and thus makes much less noise.
That’s odd… your computer idles at the temperature where mine crashes.
I wonder if I bent the temperature guage too far, and it’s not in direct contact with my cpu, and so my reported temperatures are lower than the actual temperature of the cpu.
Anyone else know? Is it normal for an athlon to idle at 140+ degrees?
Also, how would I remove the thermal grease from my CPU effectively in a non-destructive manner?
If you want your system to be reliable, no chip in the system should be above about 45 deg C. A very rough rule of thumb is that every 10 deg C above room temp cuts the expected life of the chip in half. CPUs have a tendency to run hot these days, and even big name manufacturers will skimp a bit on the size of the heat sink and fan to save a few bucks. People who don’t know any better look at the CPU specs and see the temp at which the CPU is going to die within seconds if it reaches that temp, and figure they are well below that so they are safe. The reality is that there’s a big difference between the max temp listed in the spec and the max temp you really want to run the chip at.
If you upgrade every two years then it’s not going to hurt much if you run a little hot. You do slightly increase your chances of having the cpu die an early death, but odds are in your favor. Still, I prefer my systems to be reliable so I keep the temps down.
engineer_comp_geek, I’m interested in your experiences. What happens at around 45 deg C that shortens the life of a chip? Have you seen many chips that appear to have failed due to high running temperatures?
SenorBeef, it is quite feasible that the temperature reported by your cpu probe is not accurate. It can be difficult to get the probe right up under the die, and even if you succeed, you may not be reporting the internal temperature of the CPU. On chip measurement is the most accurate way - something that the P4 provides, I believe.
You can remove much of the grease by wiping it off, and the remnants with your favourite solvent. I use a citrus based solvent called QuickSolve or something similar.
Dear mother of mercy idle at 140F? I’ve got mine OC’ed by about 300 mghz to 1.6 ghz and at full load it rarely ever goes over 100F. I’d recommend that you use a heatsink/fan combo like this one. It’s what I had in my system before I switched chips and it wouldn’t fit because of the protective cover over the chip. It is very loud though but definately gets the job done.