I hate to spoil the speculatory fun, but this is really a baseless question.
For all intents and purposes, everything of importance IS within the Universe. Math equations can say whatever; we can speculate however we wish - but the idea of “what is outside the universe” is an entirely “unimportant” question. It is tantamount to proposing that there are invisible gnomes who live deep underground and never ever do anything…and then speculating on said gnomes’ fashion sense.
While one can physically pose the question, it has no physical interpretation.
I hate to spoil the speculatory fun, but this is really a baseless question.
For all intents and purposes, everything of importance IS within the land that makes up Europe. Math equations can say whatever; we can speculate however we wish - but the idea of “what is outside Europe” is an entirely “unimportant” question. It is tantamount to proposing that the world is round, that the world magically floats around a fiery sphere… and then speculating that the moon floats around us.
While one can physically pose the question, it has no physical interpretation.
I beg to differ, it is an extremely important question, and certainly has physical interpretations. There are at least several serious cosmological theories that involve multiple universes, existing within higher-dimensional realities. There’s a Scientific American article from sometime last year that discusses one theory.
You can`t have time without relativity. You need to have things in relative to each other in order to have time. I would venture to say that as long as you have two objects moving away or towards each other and possibly a light source as a constant, you could have time.
Being outside the universe would mean that there is no material to measure so you would not have anything relative to anything else. And no light.
It’s certain that “our” time does not exist outside of “our” universe, but IIRC, inflation theory suggests that this universe could be a bubble in a multi-dimensional foam of universes. New ones pop into existence haphazardly when some quantum particle exceeds some energy number at the extreme end of the bell curve.
I’ll go out on a limb and bet that dark energy and matter are some sort of interface or shadow of the other universes. If so, there may be some way to gather information about them, even the passage of time in the uber-universe. (let me know when to pick up the Nobel)
what i mean is that nothing else in the universe knows about time - only humans and it is just an invention that we made up to keep organized - not a real thing
We couldnt have made it up without some of the basic laws of physics being true first. The speed of light, gravity, the relationship between particles and such. We dont have to prove these things first, they just have to exist.
We need physical constants and relations before time makes any sense.
For instance, the speed of light is a constant and is the same throughout the universe as we know it. A lightyear is only a constant to us here on earth because of the length of time of our year. A light year means nothing to someone in a different galaxy. But they could use the speed of light to come up with thier own light year. The constant being the speed of light. The measuring being the variable.
The Universe in physics can be considered
‘that place where we exist, and the surrounding areas where space and energy exists’
We observe that things happen in that space, and that causality exists, which means ‘things that happen, happen after the thing that causes them to happen’
This gives us a sense of time. Great thinkers came allong and found how time and space and energy (remembering energy = mass * a constant)
interelates. More great thinkers are needed to fill in the blanks, but our knowledge is getting pretty accurate.
So time is observable therefor exists.
We believe time is related directly to space and energy. If this is true than time only exists where space and energy exists, so time exists only within the universe. Without the universe, we believe there is no time as we know it, but since we do not know anything about without the universe we cannot say anything about that state with any sertainty. We can make predictions, that is all.
If we assume that without the universe is absolute nothingness (no energy, no space, no other conceptual ‘things’) then time doesn’t exist there, in fact there doesn’t exist in any meaningful definition of the word exist.
So…
our time doesn’t exist outside the universe.
another sort of time, may exist outside the universe, but we have no reason to expect that it does.
‘exist’ probalby doesn’t exist without (I don’t like using outside, because the word suggest physical spacial relationships to me) the univers.
P.S. the above is in no way meant to be sarcastic, it is just my attempt to use the simplest terminology that I can.
Also sorry for any spelling mistaches.
Good grief…it is amazing how some people refuse to be convinced.
Time dilation due to velocity has been tested and proven over and over. Don’t like flying in a plane? Fine. In the 60’s two extremely accurate clocks were placed at the base of a water tower and on top of the same water tower (one in each location) and left for awhile. The speed of light changes as it rises out of the earth’s gravity well (it goes faster). Since we must measure the speed of light as the same in all situations time becomes the variable to get the same reading. The effect between the bottom and the top of the water tower is small but when the clocks are left there long enough the difference will add up and their readings will diverge.
Sure enough the clock on top of the water tower ran at a different speed than the one at the base and the difference perfectly matched what would be predicted using Relativity (within acceptable margins of error).
All sorts of different experiments have been done to test this aspect of Relativity and so far not one has failed to support Relativity’s predictions about the nature of time in relation to velocity.
Erm, if you had read the link you would realize that “G-forces” and the speed you are traveling at have everything to do with time dialation. Here is a link to the equation. These sort of relativistic effects go a long way toward showing us how the universe works. They may seem counter-intuitive, but that is because we don’t usually travel anywhere near fast enough to experience such effects firsthand. The evidence has been confirmed through the use of extremely precise atomic clocks that can measure differentials that we would never come anywhere near to noticing on our own. There are other effects such as length contraction and relativistic mass (the faster you go the more you weigh) but you can look those up on your own.
**
I am familiar with these types of theories, but I am not sure what to think about them. If in order to unify all of the known forces we imagine our universe as merely a 3 (4?) dimensional surface within a larger “multiverse” (why is only what we can percieve the “universe?”) of higher order dimensions then it might be meaningful to say that something exists outside of our universe. Possibly many (infinite?) universes much like ours (with something we might recognise as “time”) might exist, but I am not sure what the theory really has to say about that. It still IMO, begs the question as to what is “outside” of that larger “multiverse.” But I suspect such questions pertaining so directly to the classical way in we perceive reality may be of dubious value in these thought experiments.
Someone please correct me if I’m somehow on the wrong track, I’m afraid my curiousity far outstrips my expertise in these matters…
Note: I’m not trying to be a d*ck here. I just have some questions.
Ok say it’s true. If i fly from NYC to LAX back and forth for like a month non stop, when I come back, my watch will be different from ground time? (Even if I had Atomic clocks?) I doubt this means I traveled through time or anything like that. Maybe it’s just a matter of atmospheric pressures and all that. Has there been anything done with placing a clock far into the ocean and comparing that to ground level time? (Far enough to where it won’t implode)
Time is a dimension. It is measured against the effect of other things in the universe. If there is nothing to measure with, how can there be time?
This also presents a quandry. How can you measure time outside the universe when if you go beyond the edge of the universe you become the edge of the universe.
If there is absolutely nothing, how can you measure anything?
Yes…it is absolutely true. Time moves more slowly for you when you walk, drive, fly…anything. Live on the top floor of a building and you’ll go through time at a different rate than those on the ground floor. Thing is the effect is so small as to be generally unnoticeable. They use hyper-accurate atomic clocks for these sorts of tests (clocks capable of measuring to a 100,000[sup]th[/sup] of a second). If you spent your whole life flying about it’d probably not add more than a few second difference over the course of your life…too small to notice on a moment by moment basis. And this does not equate to time travel as such. You are merely moving in time at a different rate than everyone else (e.g. you are not aging as fast).
IIRC the cosmonauts coming back from a six month stay aboard the Mir Spacestation were around three seconds behind the rest of the world. That is, they would be three seconds older if they had stayed ont he ground. This does not mean they will live three seconds longer. Assume you have a precise amount of time you will live before you die and your twin will live exactly the same amount of time (say you have 2 billion seconds alloted to your life). You hang out on Mir for six months and your twin stays on earth. The twin on earth will die three seconds before you will at the end of your lives but you both will only have lived for 2 billion seconds.
I don’t think anyone has dropped a clock to the bottom of the ocean as the same trick can be had by merely carrying the clock up a mountain or up a building (far easier and cheaper) but if they did you’d see the same effect.
