Doesn’t the existence of trans people imply an underlying biological fact of the matter regarding gender?

Word, and same goes (possibly to a somewhat lesser extent) for the brothers. For instance, I have been seeing some of the online remarks passed in response to the actor Elliot Page’s recently published memoir Pageboy and it’s just whaaaaaaaaat.

I suspect there are a LOT of guys out there (and possibly a number of “gender critical” lesbians) who remember being attracted to the individual they thought of as the actress Ellen Page, and are now having a full-blown trans-panic attack over his publicly identifying and presenting as male. Relax, fellas, having had a crush on a closeted transgender man before he transitioned does not make you gay.

I have resisted the impulse to participate in this thread because I will unquestionably fail to maintain emotional distance. I feel the need to interject this once, though, because @Riemann made this assertion at least twice and it went unchallenged.

The idea that “society” writ large has “always been” cis-normative is patently false. Wildly diverse cultures across the globe and throughout history have incorporated gender roles beyond the man/penis - woman/vagina structure that is most common in modern Western cultures. Some very casual research will yield an abundance of examples. Katoey in Thailand and Cambodia and hijra in India are just two examples with which many people are familiar. Here is a link providing lots more examples.

It is demonstrably false to suggest that “society” (and it is itself a fallacy to try to speak so broadly of human social organizations) is historically cis-normative in anything remotely resembling the contemporary Western sense. It isn’t just false - it is a lie, just like settler myths of wide-open uninhabited American plains empty and awaiting colonization. It is a lie born of genocidal intent. We have always been here and we always will.

I’m going to add that it’s largely the Abrahamic religions that have forced “cis-normativity” on every other culture they encountered.

And more specifically, Christianity and Islam. “Ancient” Judaism had additional gender roles/identities, too.

That’s true. And ironically, it’s because Jewish law is so oriented around gender that the ancient rabbits needed to make rules to account for people with unusual genders.

I have an Orthodox Jewish friend with a trans daughter. When the daughter came out as female, the rabbi welcomed her to the women’s side of the synagogue.

But an anthropological debate about the “average” historical society is irrelevant to the point I was making.

Western society throughout modern history has certainly been strongly cis-normative, often to a point of persecuting trans people, yet people in Western society still assert a trans identity. So being trans clearly cannot be a result of social conditioning.

I will ignore these hyperbolic accusations, other than to point out that you seem to have difficulty with the “is/ought” distinction, responding as though I am endorsing cis-normativity. Your last sentence “we have always been here and we always will” was my entire point. There are always trans and non-binary people, whatever the structure of society, however hostile a given society may be.

That is a very different claim than the one I quoted, which you also made in a previous post. Had you made that claim in the first place, I wouldn’t have felt the need to interject.

That’s true, but the idea that our society’s aversion to anything outside the gender binary is somehow inevitable is very harmful to trans people. It was just sloppiness on your part in making your case, but it’s actually an important clarification, and i apologize for not mentioning it earlier in the thread.

I didn’t say anything remotely like that.

Yeah, we’re not going to see eye to eye on who is guilty of sloppy thinking in this thread.

There’s a widespread fallacy. Let’s say there’s a social pressure to be a certain way. Let’s also say that there are some people who aren’t that way — they don’t see themselves as being that way, and the rest of society doesn’t see them as being that way either.

The fallacy is the notion that their variant identity can’t have any social cause. That since they aren’t in compliance with the major social pressure, it must mean that they are inherently this other identity, this variant identity.

Why is that a fallacy? Why isn’t that a completely accurate understanding?

Because the same society that exerts the social pressure to be the first way — to have the primary, accepted kind of social identity — also sets up alternative identities. Part of the pressure to be the first way consists of how the alternative identity is constructed as a less desirable, problematic, debased identity. Something that you can be accused of being if your behaviors don’t quite conform to the primary-identity behaviors that are prescribed and expected. Being accused of being “one of those” is precisely how a lot of people get pressured into being mainstream-normative.

Now, we aren’t passive blank slates. We, as individuals, actually do get to play a role in constructing our own identities. Let’s not erase that. That’s why a lot of marginalized identities have redeeming features, desirable qualities: the people occupying those identities manage to attach some good experiences and memories to other folks’ understandings of what it means to be like that.

But it’s a social process. The people occupying marginalized identities are occupying spaces that aren’t just defined by themselves. The all-Christian theocratic societies of the European middle ages had a role for the infidel and the witch and the sinner. You generally did not want to be that person, you generally did not want to be perceived as one of them, but it was sure as hell there, with expectations and understandings attached. And in some cases, some people found it better to negotiate society from within one of those pariah identities than as one of the normative folks.

Similarly, criminal is an identity. Psychiatric patient is an identity. Homeless person is an identity. The range of social options, including the sense of “how do other people stuck in this situation cope with things”, are all components of how those identities are held in the common shared belief system as social constructs.

Activists among the marginalized are centrally involved in trying to reshape how the identities they occupy are perceived — hence how they are constructed, what the shared understandings and expectations are shaped like. Negro and homosexual were identities that have been reshaped and reconfigured substantially from the inside of the experience. That does not mean they aren’t social constructs any more. Gay people and Black people still learn from social cues and depictions and interactions with others occuping those labeled identities how a person such as themselves is to behave and think.

Transgender woman and transgender man are identities with expectations, narratives, assumptions, etc all attached to them. If you don’t speak up and explain your own specific story and your own specific understanding of yourself, and merely say “I’m trans”, you’re accepting that whole bag of beliefs and attitudes. It does let you hold that bag in lieu of having to hold the normative-person bag, which may be a lot farther from who you are and how it is for you, but it’s still a bag, still a stereotyped set of notions, still a social construct that you, personally, had damn little to do with creating. If, on the other hand, you do try to define the ways in which your personal self and experience and understandings thereof aren’t quite what society in general holds to be true of transgender women or men, you get friction. People take exception to what you’ve said. People tell you you’re doing it all wrong. Or they just get puzzled and don’t get it because it contradicts what they’ve been told.

Heh. :rabbit:

I don’t that’s necessarily correct. I can think of at least a few ways that different social pressure might guide some kids (especially girls) towards adopting a trans identity.

And your fallacy is failing to grasp the distinction between:

(1) What factors define the categories that exist;

(2) What factors place a person into one of those categories.

It may be that (1) is largely a social construct; while (2) is largely attributable to non-social factors.

To give an example (again) to illustrate the point.

Suppose a species of bird is present in both Africa and Europe. In Africa, the chemical composition of the bird’s diet leads to plumage that is either light blue or dark blue. In Europe, a different diet leads to plumage that is either light green or dark green.

The categories of plumage color are determined by local environmental factors that differ in the two populations. Yet it may be that the light blue / dark blue or light green / dark green variation within each population is completely determined by genetic factors.

The fallacy that I’ve described, which I am tempted to name Reimann’s Fallacy, contends that the factors that place a person into a marginalized identity is largely attributable to non-social factors.

Reimann obviously doesn’t consider that fallacious. But other than that I think we’re in agreement about what we’re talking about here, yes?

AHunter3’s Fallacy, if I’m the one whose thinking is fallacious, is in thinking that social factors play a really large role in marginalized identities.

Let’s consider my own, since I have a marginalized identity. Is there something built-in within me that inherently makes me femme? Maybe. I don’t make that claim. I don’t know that it is not true. It certainly could be. I see myself as having made some choices, expressed some value judgements and tastes, and then I had a history, the history of a person who had made those choices and that set me up to have different subsequent experiences.

Whenever I think about “am I naturally femme or femme because of my social context”, I end up wondering…

a) In a world where it wasn’t widely believed that boys were different from girls other than having outies instead of innies down there, would I have concluded that in general they actually are, except for me, and that I was, unusually, like the girls in general instead?

b) How different would I have to be from the expectations of masculinity foisted onto boys before having this reaction of deciding at some point that I was a sissy / femme? Suppose I was halfway in between, sort of androgynous but a better fit for the masculine expectations etc than I was in real life? But lots of males have that experience and didn’t decide to come out as androgynous. It only hit me the way it did because I was sort of an outlier. But why then say it’s built-in for me but not for the in-betweenish guy who is more androynous than femme?

I have said that when a society aggressively persecutes people in a certain marginalized identity, when there is a large penalty and no obvious benefit from asserting this identity, then it is not plausible to claim that social factors are pushing people to adopt that identity.

If you think there is some “fallacy” in that, you’ll have to point it out.

I did.

Masculinity and conformity to male expectations is accomplished in males by having queers and fags. If there weren’t any genuinely existent gay guys, they probably would have been invented as fictitional mythological creatures just to have something to make straight guys scared of being and scared of being accused of being.

The social meaning, the role, the sets of expectations and beliefs foisted onto them, is not predominantly due to innate characteristics of the individuals in question.

If you defy the pressures to be normative, you get pressured into accepting one of the marginalized identities reserved by society for just this purpose.

When I took philosophy and we were working on the debate process, the first step was agreeing upon an “Operational Definition” of what, exactly we were debating. Otherwise, if you think “@#%^&" means one thing, and I think "@#%^&” means something else, debate is impossible. In fact, it can be counterproductive because it is very frustrating.

Once upon a time, sex/gender was simple. You were born with a vagina or a penis. You were a boy or a girl. End of story. In most cases that simplistic approach is good enough. I was born as a female, I feel like a female, so I am a female.

Now, however we have found that things are far more complex than that. Suppose I had been born physically as a man? I feel like a female. Now, what? In my view, I’m a female. So, the old, simplistic categorization of male and female is not satisfactory because, like any theory in science, it isn’t any good if it doesn’t explain all the facts and circumstances. So, that operational definition of sex/gender is no longer acceptable because it is wrong. So, now what? Well, how about letting THAT PERSON decide what sex THAT PERSON is?

Well, the “old guard” won’t accept that, so they come up with all kinds of erroneous “reasons” why they are right. They are not reasons, they are rationalizations and constructs that are designed to trim a square peg so that it fits into a round hole. They actually presume to know what other people are really feeling and thinking and judge them according to their perceptions. As long as situation exists, we will have discrimination.

You wrote:

Yeah, i think that implies

Maybe “has always been true” is better than “inevitable”.

It’s still a harmful notion, because it makes the idea of accepting other identifies seem novel and risky.