Sorry. But as long as we’re going to have groups of kids lying dead in schools every fucking year, I say school administrators should be knee-jerk and zero-tolerance as hell when it comes to even perceived threats of violence from a student.
Joking about it, or saying things about harming other students that you don’t really mean should now be tolerated in schools as joking about or alluding to bombs and guns is in airports.
OK, look. One time I wrote a poem. It was entitled “Knife Chant” and contained lines such as the following:
and
Pretty violent, right? Happily, as I was going to junior college in Canada, I came in fourth in an international poetry contest. If I had been going to high school in the US, I might have been expelled.
That’s exactly what I was saying. The schools are pressured to do something, but what they do is either inadequate or inappropriate.
Heh. Not to pick on anyone, but school related deaths have actually been going down drastically. (multiple victim rampages are going up, which isn’t good, but I’m hopeful) The zero tolerance policies have several stupid effects. They don’t bear down on the beginning steps of intolerance and hate, but rather further stigmatise kids who are leaning toward an edge anyway. If they are banning anything remotely dangerous. They also do things like toss kids out of school for expressing thoughts in words and wanting to spread cream cheese with a plastic knife.
I agree that violence is bad, but its getting better, regardless of what the media says, and schools should focus on tolerance and working through conflicts non violently. If writing a poem sheds some spare ill will that’s a far better activity than smashing someone’s nose or shooting them. (And if you’re going to get suspended anyway, dump a jock down some stairs, more satisfying.)
I agree that actual violence should become less okay, but constructive venting (poetry, honest open mediated discussion of problems, art) should be part of the solution not the problem to be fought.
The poem, as I read it, was written from the point of view of a person tormented by bullies and who is planning on getting revenge in a Columbine-esque way. I’m sure that many people who have been bullied have, at some point, contemplated doing something like that, even if it’s just a fleeting ‘I’m gonna kill that bastard someday’ which is then immediately forgotten. By punishing the student for writing this poem we are effectively saying that that particular persecuted minority doesn’t have the right to express it’s discontent if that expression includes elements of revenge which it probably would.
I can’t believe what I am hearing!
Are we now to be told what subjects for artistic expression are appropriate? Shades of Socialist Realism! Art exists to explore and express. Some of those subjects may make people really uncomfy. You know what? Thats what arts for. It’s not just something to hang over your couch.
This work clearly is not a threat. If it was taped to someone’s locker, it might be a threat. If it was published in the school newspaper, that might be a threat. But this was published on a poetry site, and clearly presented as an artistic work, not a threat.
Yelling “Fire” in the audience of a theater is not protected, but yelling “Fire” in the context of a play about firefighters is. Threatening to kill a major public official is not protected, but writing a book about assasinations is.
I think that the way this country dismisses minors is one of the contributing factors in school shootings. Sometimes kids feel powerless and unlistened to. They may search for ways to make themselves heard, which may be violent in nature. I think this feeling of powerlessness is only made worse by schools that treat students like inmates, and tell them they are not entitled to the freedoms garenteed in the constitution. A school, my friend, is not a prison. A student, my friend, is not simply a criminal waiting to happen. In this country we are innocent until proven guilty, even if you are still getting your education.
If we honestly want to see school shootings end, we are going to have to start an equal dialogue with students, not shut it down.
Okay, let’s say that I’m a painter. If I created a painting for public display of a man shooting another man, that would be fine, right? Right. However, let’s say that the shooter in the painting looks exactly like me, the victim in the painting looks exactly like my professor, and the setting looks exactly like his classroom. Should my professor be concerned if he sees this painting, which I have put on public display? Let me put it this way - if you saw a painting in which you were being killed by someone in your life who also happened to create the painting in question, wouldn’t you be concerned? Wouldn’t you feel threatened? I would, and I doubt I’m alone on that.
A few things:
I see a difference in the poem linked to by the OP and matt_mcl’s poem, which is that the first poem seemed to be threatening specific people – the people at the school. Whereas matt_mcl’s poem was more general. (I got the impression from the second poem that he might be Jewish or black, but I could be wrong there. It definitely had that “my people have been oppressed and I am extremely angry about it” feel – great poem, by the way.)
I can’t fault school administrators for taking action against someone who has made a threat; however, what the hell good is suspension going to do? Or expulsion, for that matter? If they’re really serious about solving the problem of violence in the schools, then what they should do is get these kids some counseling, someone to talk to, something like that – not just a knee-jerk, “Well, you said something violent and now you must be punished” attitude. I mean, isn’t that what got us here in the first place?
I would also rather see a no-tolerance policy against mocking and teasing, than against violent poems. I am dead serious. You think all these kids would be so angry and upset if they didn’t get made fun of all the damn time in school? Maybe some would, but not all. High school is no fun, especially if you are different in any way. We all know this. But nobody is talking about that problem; they all just want to focus on the guns and violence. Well, where the hell do you think the violence comes from? It comes from anger, and that anger comes from being taunted and made fun of and not accepted. I feel very strongly about this. It is not an excuse. Killing other people cannot be excused. But it is a reason, and if we’re looking for something to fix, then I ask you, why aren’t we fixing THIS?
Heh, times sure have changed.
In high school (ten years ago), I was mildly tormented by a guy named Steve. I called him “Curly” because the back of his mullet curled up over his shoulders.
Anyway, we happened to be in the same Creative Writing class and I wrote a story about a pompus jerk named Curly. Well, it was pretty bloody and in the end, Curly realizes what a lonely, shallow bastard he is and eventually dies slow, agonizing death.
The teacher liked it so much she read it out loud to the class!
Nowadays I would have been expelled for that? This is getting ridiculous.
The poem is vaguely threatening and deserved the attention of school authorities, who then should have then determined whether the writer was seriously considering acts of violence or just suffering from an ordinary case of teen angst. In other words, both sides were wrong. Nothing new there, I’m afraid.
There’s something missing here…
How did the school find out about the poem if he did it on his own time away from school on a website unaffliated with the school? At some point, he must have actually told someone about the poem unless it was posted where his classmates and/or teachers would see it and attribute it to him. The context of how he did this and who he told is just as important in deciding legitimacy of action as the poem itself.
That said, I agree with the idea that suspension/expulsion does not help anybody here, regardless of the circumstances. In fact, I’ve always thought those were ridiculous punishments for most offenses. You were bad? Well, um… you take a vacation!
The poem in question, however, isn’t a threat to anyone specific. Even though it’s written in the first person we shouldn’t assume that he’s espousing his own views. Me, I write stories and poems all the time and usually I choose to write them in the first person because it’s an easy and more interesting method of developing character. I’ve written young men, old men, young women, old women, lovers, gay lovers and even cold blooded killers all in first person and all because it is my preferred means of developing character. Out of all those the only one I am is a young man (used to be lover to but…long story). Anyway, the point is, even though this poem is written from the first person we shouldn’t assume that it is a personal threat from the author. Also, I imagine that writing a poem with that sort of subject matter would be a lot harder to write in any other format than a first person narrative (I actually had a quick go at rewriting it for the third preson and it wasn’t as good). There could easily have been good technical reasons why he decided to write it in the first preson and just because it may read asthough it is a personal message from him we cannot discount the possibility, no, scratch that, the probability that he was writing in character.
Secondly if you were to draw a picture of you killing someone you know and displaying it in a public place then it would be a threat but there are no specifics mentioned in this poem. There are no names named, no places mentioned, the school is not named. In short there is nothing specific in this poem which would constitiute a direct threat against anybody. IN short, we cannot prove that there is anything in the poem which is motivated by anything other than simple teenage angst.
Well, I was going to resurrect an old “zero tolerance” thread for this, but I reckon this thread will do just as well: Pupil Suspended for Drawing Soldier
Truly, we have reached a new low.
I’m on the line on this one.
On one hand, school violence is down.
On another hand, a certain type of school violence (angry white kids shooting their classmates as a form of anger management) is up.
Yet on the other hand we can’t curtail rights based on assumptions of future actions.
And then on this hand over here, we are charged with raising our children and protecting them.
I still haven’t made up my mind, but would anybody feel differently if there had been a disclaimer attached? Something to specify that it was either a poem about generic school problems, or maybe what motivates the guys who DO shoot?
[sub]Yes I have 4 hands[/sub]
The school district has apparently come to a conclusion, and it is very probable that Sean is to be “alternatively placed” (read: expelled). He’ll be dropped into another high school where they dump kids with stuff like weapons violations, constant truancy, and actual crimes.
Let’s evaluate, shall we?
Sean’s “threats” are simply artistic expression. So a student who has taken no harmful action is going to be dropped into a situation he is not capable or derserving of handling. He will be mocked more, he will be threatened more, and he will quite likely be placed in more violent situations.
For those who believe that Sean’s poetry was threatening, examine: now he’s being placed in a situation where the very things that were driving him to violent feelings are now going to be exacerbated.
Again, YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
I’m supposed to feel sorry for the little creep?
How did he expect people would react to these words. Did he deliberately use lanquage that called to mind the recent school shootings? Yes, he did. Did he deliberately use lanquage that could be considered an actual threat of violence? Yes. Examine: This was the reaction he wanted!!!
I seem to recall a cartoon (Warner Brothers maybe) where a likke squirrel or something goes to hollywood, and everyone who is mean to him goes on a ‘list’. He will keep the list so he remembers to be mean to them later… or something.
I had a point here. I think.
I dunno how you fix it, I feel bad for you americans. Its hard to get a hand gun here in canada, backward as we are, so we dont get the bloody school rampages.
As much as I hate censorship…where do you draw the line with potentially dangerous kids?
Look at columbine - didnt they have a hate filled threatening website up before the crime? IN hindsite, the police feel it should have tipped them off. What are they supposed to do about threatening poetry - and it IS threatening - that is placed on the net for all to view?
Just because this kid needs to express himself in words, does he HAVE to put it where it can be seen by everyone? Maybe a little prudence here would have avoided the whole thing.
Real irony will be if this artsy kid gets shot or stabbed in this new violent school.
You know, growing up in the 80’s was swell.
Look, I feel bad for the kid. This really isn’t the way to solve the situation. The school board did have to do something, but why this? What does expelling him solve? My original opinion of the situation still stands though.
I mean, putting it on the internet doesn’t make it poetry. I don’t read racist bullshit in the GD and think “my goodness, this must be a great debate, for that’s what the forum says it is.” no…it’s racist bullshit and it’s been posted there by an idiot. Flowers of the forum ain’t gonna make a bad post smell pretty. [sub]I just came up with that. Pretty nifty eh?[/sub]
And mysphyt you’re being curiously non-forthcoming on answers to questions everyone keeps asking:
Why do I get the feeling we’re all missing something here?
My opinion, and it is just my opinion: It’s a poem. Big fucking deal.
Hell, even if it was prose and said “I’m going to shoot Mike, Bill, and Carol in their ugly faces.” Big fucking deal.
Just because he’s a high-school student doesn’t make him a sociopath. There’s a bigger picture to consider, and especially whether there’s a history of any actual violence committed.
I do not believe the student should have had any punishment. Perhaps a talk with the counselor, at the most.
Mysphyt, that makes my heart hurt. Ten years from now, people will probably say “He ruined his life”. No. The school district has ruined it for him.
Mysphyt, I don’t know you, or your age or relative status to this young man. But I hope that, if you’re in any position to do so, you’ll help him through this.
When I was in middle school, I had what I still believe was a nervous breakdown, though it was never diagnosed as such. Diagnosis or not, I was pitifully maladjusted, and if I’d kept on the way I was going, I probably would have been committed at age 18. I came out of it, at least the worst of it, in grade 8.
Two major factors in this were my music teacher and my uncle. I won’t go into detail about the teacher, but what my uncle did was truly touching. He was the only person to talk to me at a family gathering, and though we didn’t talk about my problems or feelings at all, he gathered just how messed-up I was. From then until I graduated, he kept in steady contact with me, sending letters every week, or at least every ten days, calling me when he could afford it, recommending books and listening to my evaluations, and generally giving me a reason to do stuff instead of just fasting and hibernating.
I didn’t even realize at the time how much I needed this. It wasn’t just a matter of “talking to someone”, although I needed that, too. What made the difference was knowing that someone who was two states away, and who didn’t normally take the avuncular stance with his nieces and nephews (he’s two years older than my oldest cousin) actually thought I was worth time spent checking up on me.
Please start a correspondence with this kid. Not therapy sessions, just MPSIMS. His world is going to be pretty bleak, literally and figuratively. If you can keep him tethered, maybe in ten years people will say, “He’s really made something of himself”.