Dog training- to shock or not to shock??

In My Humble Opinion
1

I recently realized that Auggie, The Cutest Dog on the Planet ™, is in need of some training. He is having a few little problems that I don’t want to become big problems- stuff like not coming the first time he’s called, not wanting to go to his room when we leave for work, etc. He’s neutered and 10-12 months old (not sure exactly because he was a rescue from a ditch on the side of the road:( ).

 I have checked a few places in my aream and most of them seem to favor the "shock collars".  I REALLY don't want to use one of those.  One place, on its website, even says that the way it works is to cause fear in the dog, and the dog looks to the owner / trainer for comfort, which translates into obedience.  All of the places claim that it is not physically painful, but my gut tells me that this is not the way I want to trian Auggie.  

 What experince has anyone had with these things?  Is "reward training" really effective?  I have read a lot of stuff on reward training, and I'd much prefer it to shocking my pup.
2

The very last thing I am is some kind of “activist”, and I don’t accord pets equal to human status.

That disclaimer being made, I think anyone who uses a shock or choke collar should be beaten with a sock full of wood screws or a lead pipe wrapped in newspaper. No joke, no exaggeration. It’s unnecessary cruelty for the sake of being cruel because the person is too damn lazy to actually TRAIN their dog.

A good obedience class doesn’t train the animal; it teaches YOU how to train train your animal, and it’s extremely effectively, particularly with dogs. Dogs are reward whores.

There is no excuse to EVER shock, choke or hit a dog unless it is attacking. If you pay attention to the animal and watch it closely, it will eventually do what you want it to do. When it does, reward it with lots of affection and whatever low-calorie treat you deign. The dog will learn in close to no time what the right thing to do is in order to get the love and attention that, to it, is more important than food and shelter.

Sorry if the above seems a little strong, but it’s people who use the kind of “aversion” training methods you mentioned that wonder later why their dog turned on them “for no reason” and have the poor thing put down. Aversion training a dog does nothing more than light a fuse that will one day set of a charge you never want to experience.

My dog, Bitz the Wondermutt, is a 105 lb. black Lab and Rott mix. She’s also simultaneously affectionate/friendly and protective. It took a lot of work by her first owner and myself to get her to that point, but it worked flawlessly, and I have the best dog I could ever imagine as a result. She has never been hit, shocked or choked. The closest that’s ever come about is being yelled at, and she IMMEDIATELY gets the message that she’s misbehaved. When my voice goes up, her tail goes down. She also knows when she’s done right because I ALWAYS reward her with my tone of voice and manner of petting her.

It’s a system that takes a bit longer than blasting the dog, but you get a much more throughly trained and responsive companion as a result. The extra time and effort are worth it in the long run. Invest them and you’ll get the return you want.

3

I vote that you trust your heart on this one. I would not want anyone to shock my dogs and I certainly would not do it. I think that with quality time, patience, repetition, and maybe some good advice, you will be able to reach your training goals without shock collars.
I am happy to hear that you saved your pup from a probable disaster. He is lucky you found him.
Have considered getting into a training class? PetsMart offers them.
Good luck.

4

Wow. Please forgive the 917 typos in that post. The subject gets my blood up and I forget to proof.

5

I’d only shock in extreme cases. For instance, if you have an extremely willful dog who keeps running out into traffic and endangering his life. Then I’d shock him in lieu of allowing him to get killed.

But I certainly wouldn’t shock a dog for not going to his room when you leave. Dogs will obey you because they adore you OR because they fear you. I’m sure you’d prefer the former.

Or, try to exercise diplomacy and positive reinforcement before resorting to violence. :slight_smile:

6

No no no! No shocking! Reward, not punish.

My dog wasn’t following any commands, so I did a little experiment. I decided to reteach her, but using a different language so I could compare her response to the different words. Her response to the second one, Spanish, is now amazing. Basically, if you give the dog a command, you have to make it happen. If you tell her to come, and she doesn’t, you pick her up (or, if she’s a big dog, pull her) over to you. One trick that we picked up in obedience school was to put her on a long leash, give her the “come” command, and then pull the leash, gradually, towards you. For teaching sit, don’t simply push down on her butt; instead, scoop under it, putting pressure on the back legs and she will sit.

When she does these commands, reward them every time to begin with. Gradually, taper off the treats so that she only gets them sometimes. Always, make sure to give her lots of love.

7

Having worn a shock collar and tried it out myself, I’d say don’t bother. They don’t really work very well, at least not if you have a very big dog. My friend’s dog just ignored it. A good square kick in the ass is much more effective. :smiley:

“Diplomacy” with a dog. WTF??? Do you use the cat as your ambassador?

8

A good square kick in the ass is much more effective.

Not ever acceptable. I am unable to see the humor. Yack!:frowning:

9

Trust your gut. If shocking your dog makes you uncomfortable, don’t do it. I’ve been working as a professional dog trainer for several years now, and I can tell you from experience that those collars almost never work and are a bad idea for most dogs. Here’s why: in theory, it’s a great idea- pain results from certain actions, so it’s a classic conditioning method. But most dogs are either so upset by the shock that they completely forget what they’re not supposed to do, or they’re so touch-insensitive (most sporting breeds) that they just don’t even feel it. I’ve seen people use those collars and unintentionally turn their dogs into cowering wrecks who refuse to move because they’re so afraid of getting shocked.

If your dog is not responding reliably to the “Come” command, put on a training collar (metal-link style) and leave a leash on him when he’s in the house with you. (NEVER leave him unattended with a leash or a training collar on- he could be seriously injured or killed.) If he refuses to come, a quick correction by holding the leash in one hand and giving it a fast pop with your wrist will usually change his mind. Practice with this first, though, by attaching the leash to a doorknob or other stationary object. The goal is not to choke the dog- if he’s gagging or straining, you’re doing it wrong. The point is to make the ZIP! noise with the collar and put pressure on the back of his neck, which dogs recognize instinctively as a correction, since Mom did it when they were pups. Practice calling him to you from the end of the leash, and graduate up to longer leashes when he’s reliable with it. Only tell him to come once- saying it repeatedly makes him think he’s allowed to ignore you. If he hesitates too long or won’t come, give him a quick correction, and then immediately praise him if he takes even a step toward you. Use a calm, even, deep tone for commands, and a high-pitched happy tone for praise.

Reward training is the most effective method for the average dog. Any reward that your dog enjoys will do, just be sure to make it fun. Short sessions, and an upbeat attitude. Praise more than you correct, and don’t shout- it’s intensity, not volume, that gets results.

Also, you mentioned Auggie is about 10-12 months old. This means he’s becoming a teenager! At this stage, dogs begin to mature mentally at a rapid rate- they start becoming independent and testing boundaries. His refusal to listen to you may be part of this. Just keep at it, slow, steady, and positive, and he’ll come around. Many dogs at this age start testing you to see what they can get away with- it’s the time when their wild relatives are establishing their places in the pack hierarchy. Auggie is possibly trying to see just where he stands in your family. It’s up to you tell him. If he’s getting too rude, you may have to ground him for a few days to a week. This means no treats, no petting, no attention other than basic feeding, watering, grooming, health care, and exercise until he does his chores, which in this case means obeying commands. Before he gets to play, have him sit. If he wants to be petted, have him do some “Downs”. This will reinforce that you are in charge, in a friendly way without any confrontation. If he realizes that listening to you gets him what he wants, he’ll start learning fast. But you’ve got to be consistent, which is the hardest part. If you let him slide on Monday, he’ll be that much more ready to ignore you on Tuesday.

It sounds like you are a great owner who really wants to do right by your dog. Always trust your gut instincts, I can’t emphasize that enough. If it feels wrong to you, then it is! There are also many, many great books on training out there. A few of the ones I like are by John Ross, Brian Kilcommons, and in a pinch, The Monks of New Skete. You may also be interested in a book called The Truth About Dogs by Stephen Budiansky. You can also check out the GreatPets website, which has tons of tips and a message board where you can get advice from professionals: www.greatpets.com Good luck, and keep us posted. :slight_smile:

10

This is exactly the kind of feedback I need! What about other “aversion” stuff, like shake cans? I’m afraid that any aversion techniques might backfire and I’ll wind up with a dog who’s scared of me and may turn aggressive.

 Obviously, I am totally inexperienced with dogs.  Always been a cat person.  Auggie really converted me!
11

The trick to using a shake can is to never throw it at the dog. Also, try to set up a situation where he can’t see that you are responsible for shaking the can. If he thinks this weird noise just happens whenever he’s up to no good, and doesn’t connect it with you, it’ll be more effective. Hiding behind corners and giving a quick shake from out of sight when he’s making mischief usually works well. However, some dogs just don’t care about shake cans. My dogs actually played with them, rolling them across the kitchen floor and having a blast making a racket. They also don’t care about a quick squirt from a water pistol. (If you do use the water method, aim away from the dog’s face.) I seriously doubt that a shake can will freak out your dog and make him aggressive. But some dogs really do dislike the noise, so try a quick test beforehand to see how he reacts. It’s overly-harsh correction that can lead a dog to become fearful and aggressive- hitting, hanging, choking, flanking, and the truly bizarre stuff like putting vinegar on his nose or rubbing his nose in poop. More often, aggression in dogs is a serious case of bad attitude- bored dogs who spend hours chained up outside, dogs whose owners are afraid of them, spend no time training or interacting with them, give them no direction or structure in their lives, or who let their dog bully them. You don’t sound like you’re doing any of these things, so I wouldn’t worry too much.

**

In a way though, this is actually a really good thing. It means you have no pre-conceived ideas of how it should be done or what you should expect. Not to sound silly, but it always makes me so happy to see people who so obviously love and care about their pets. Keep up the good work! And if you ever want to talk about dog-training, feel free to e-mail me. My addy is in my profile.

12

Everyone else has pretty much covered everything. I just wanted to add the following:

Don’t get discouraged! Don’t give up! Dogs are in many ways just like little kids. It takes tons of patience and persistence. Your loving care and attention will produce an excellent companion animal who will one day be nothing less than a joy and asset to your life.

ratty gave sound advice, and better, links with further info. You’ll find a bewildering variety of info and many “experts” who contradict each other in terms of best training methods. So glad you’re too smart to shock your dog. A fearful, intimidated dog is just as likely to bite or become a problem (if not more so) than a dog with dominance-aggression behaviours.

What all trainers and “experts” say in common is the most important thing: We have to learn to understand canine motivations because this is how dogs are relate to the world, they are incapable of anything else.

In other words, we gotta think like them, 'cuz they can’t think like us.

Once understood, that info will help you find the patience to get through the tough times. I’m so glad that yet another “cat” person has found out that dogs are awesome too.

Best of luck to you :slight_smile:

13

Tera, my oldest dog is a Huskie mix. I got her from the SPCA. She was the cutest thing. (still is :smiley: ) She had the dominant approach to everything even as a pup. She mouthed my hand while trying to pet her. Once I was horsing around with her and her little puppy teeth almost bit through that little piece of skin between my nostrils. Brought tears to my eyes. I read alot of stuff and hired a professional trainer. I was desperate. She was really dominant. Before the trainer, I read about the pennies in the coffee can. The first time I shook them at her, she stopped whatever it was she was doing. And naturally, I gave the praise. Heck, about the second or third time I shook those pennies at her, she turned and barked and growled and lunged. She was only about 12 weeks old so it was cute… I thought. It was cute. Then I called Benji’s Home Dog Training. Boy, that lady was impressive. Tera was perfect for her. Soon as the trainer left, Tera had me where she wanted me. I finally got it done but it wasn’t easy. She ended up being pretty well-behaved. I mean I wouldn’t trust her to walk next to me amongst traffic without a leash. I was happy when she started walking right next to me on a leash and not pulling my shoulder out of socket. She is a wonderful companion but she don’t solve fer x or anything. All of that to say, love and patience and repetition and age will do the trick.They are so much better after the puppy stage. Partly because of the training and partly because they just calm down more.
I have three dogs btw. They all come, stay, fetch, shake, and believe it or not… go get in the tub for a bath. They do not like it, but they do it.
I was never big on keeping any of them off the couch. I am amused by folks that insist on this because I am convinced that as soon as you are off to work or whatever, they are going to lay up where ever they want and nap until you are due home. Then they will go sit on the rug by the door all innocent like. Yep.
TMI… sorry. But good luck.

14

Shock may be a bit overboard. Even though I didn’t use one I notice as a rule dogs have a better life here in the US than most people do in the 3rd world.

My obedience trainer made me train our very unruly, very untrainable, somewhat slow-tearing, terror with a prong collar. My 1st reaction was “how utterly medieval.” After he put it around my wrist to prove it wasn’t painful, he sold me…and it worked wonders in the matter of 3 weeks.

15

As other posters have said, don’t use the shock collar if it bothers you. Positive reinforcement seemed to work so much better with my dogs than negative reinforcement. Your dogs really bond with you and it’s just fun to do!

Obedience classes are wonderful. I took my dogs when the younger one was 10 months and the older one 5 years old. Even the older dog learned so much it was amazing.

I taught my dogs to come using the technique ratty described. However, I used it to teach them to come to be by calling their names. The actual command “come” I reserve for true emergencies (e.g. dog chasing a squirrel into a busy street). I do live on a busy road and I wanted a command that the dogs couldn’t resist coming for and that I only used when they absolutely HAD to come that very instant.

To teach them “come” I had a friend hold onto their leashes. I’d come up to them and show them that I had a yummy food treat in my hand. Then I’d turn and run some distance from them (apparently, running calls up their chase instincts). Then I’d turn and yell “COME.” As soon as the dogs got to me, they’d get lavished with tons of praise and food treats. The idea is that “come” has to be the best word a dog can ever hear and there is nothing better in the world than running to you at that very moment!

That’s why I only use it for emergency situations. I weaned them off the food treats for other commands, but I want “come” to remain the best word my dogs can hear.

16

I was in PETsMART a few weeks ago and the guy in line in front of me was buying a choke collar. I asked him what kind of dog he had, and he told me it was an 8 week Rott puppy.

I then asked him why he was buying a choke collar, and he said he’d heard Rotts are very willful and he wanted to make sure it obeyed, saw him as the dominant, didn’t want it to turn on him, etc.

I told him, "Look, it’s your dog and I can’t make you change your mind, but if you use force on a dog that smart and that strong when it’s a puppy, once it figures out that it’s big a little later on down the road, he might challenge you. It’s instinctive. At one point, if it’s raised with force to correct its behavior, it might think to itself, "Uh uh. Not today, pal.

“You’re way better off TEACHING the dog than forcing it to submit. I showed him how well Bitz obeyed and how a lot of patience worked better for her than any amount of force ever could.”

He put the choke collar back and signed the dog up for basic obedience, thanking me for saving him from making a big potential mistake with the dog.

When I was checking out, the clerk thanked me too. She said how they weren’t allowed to talk a customer out of a purchase, but that she always hated to ring up a choke or shock collar. Then she gave Bitz a treat (after I gave Bitz the “all clear” command – I poison-proofed her not to take treats from strangers or eat anything on the ground without the magic word), came from around the counter and petted her silly.

The mutt was in doggy heaven and I was proud of her for serving as a good role model/example and saving another puppy from abuse, well-intentioned though it may have been.

17

first let me say, i am not here to get flamed.
here is our experience with the silent fence ™ system, with a little history.
our first dog, the late, great jake, was able to learn her boundries. she would stay(after a little puppy training) and protect our property. she died of cancer in 2000.
after many tears and some healing, we decided to get another dog. abby came into our lives. she was the 6 mo. old dog of a homeless man, and had/has some behavior problems.
we worked with her, but to no avail-she would run into the street, so after some research and a consultation with our vet, we invested in the silent fence.
you dont just put it on the dog and let it loose. it comes with a one month training tape where you acclimate the dog. we have two radio frequency units that make an overlapping “figure eight”.
you find the boundries (carry the collar out into the yard, then when it beeps, you place a white flag). then you train the dog. put the dog on a leash and let it hear the beeping noise that precedes the shock and pull it back. you do this over and over so that the dog turns back at the beeping phase, not the shock phase. the dog learns to recognise the white flags and the beep. you can also control the intensity of the shock. this has worked well for us. abby will sit on the edge of our property and feel confidant knowing her domain. the only time we have incountered a problem is when people have set off fireworks and she has freaked out and broken through and gone missing for two days (thus freaking us out and we go missing for two days looking for her) and the fact that it does not keep other animals out of your yard-luckily she is a big dog and has not had too much “compitition”. we have even been in a research project on an upgrade that the company is trying.
my only complaint is that once the dog breaks through the system, as she has done twice, the battery beeps until it is spent. she wont come home until it stops. this has only happened twice in two years; we keep her inside on fireworks laden holidays and she is a pretty happy gal.

18

I agree with just about everything I read in the previous posts. I don’t know of any reputable trainers that use shocking, or advise others to do so.

Get signed up with a trainer. Petsmart offers basic obdience for about $100 for 6 weeks. It’s worth it. Just realize that the training is for YOU, as well as the dog.

The shake can - I don’t like this method. If the dog does the bad behavior, and the can isn’t rattled every single time, he will quickly learn that the can equals you. So, when you are in another room, the shower, at work, he will get up on the couch, chew stuff etc - whatever the bad behavior is. Do not underestimate your dog’s intelligence.

One tip - I have a bell at the back door, hanging from the knob on a ribbon. When the dogs were pups, we would take their paw and shake the bell, at the same time saying “ring the bell!” and then immediately take them outside. It only took a few days before my 12 week old puppy would ring the bell to go outside. Of course, the connection between outside and potty still needed to be made, but now we always know when they want out. A previous dog of ours would not bark - she would sit at the door for hours, so we decided the bell was the way to go.

19

I’ve also used a water pistol on my dog to stop her chewing. Hiding the gun at my side, I’d look away, and give her a squirt. The surprise was always enough to stop what she was doing.

I agree that reward training is the best method. You will still need to use mild discipline such as a squirt of water, or the rattle of pennies in a can, but with enough time an patience, you should never need to resort to harsher means.

Of course, with agressive or dominant dogs, you will need to show him who’s Alpha Dog in your house. One way to do this is to make the dog lie down, roll him onto his back, belly up, and hold him there, gently but firmly until he stops struggling. After he give up, wait a few more seconds, and then release. With a dog like this, who challenges you for dominance, always make him sit before feeding, and never allow agressive play.

Your average, good-natured dog wants nothing more than to please you . . . he just doesn’t know how. With love and lasvish praise, you can turn him into an ideal pet.

Punishment, when done, must be IMMEDIATE. Dogs have an extremely short-term memory for cause and effect. You must catch them in the act, and firmly say “NO!” The best thing to do after this is to give him a command and then praise when he obeys. For example, if the dog is chewing a shoe, tell him no, take it away, and then give him his toy, and praise when he chews it. For some dogs who have a problem understanding what belongs to them, you might want to place a drop of lemon juice on all of his possessions, so he can identify what’s his by scent. NEVER, EVER give a dog an old shoe or sock to play with. (He’ll think any shoe or sock is fair game, not understanding the difference between old and new.)

When I first got my dog, I contacted a professional trainer. She told me that the biggest part of her job is training the OWNERS, not the dogs. We must learn how to communicate what we want to the dog in a way the dog understands. If I would walk up to you, waving my hands and saying, “Blah! Blah!” You’d have no idea what I was asking you to do. A dog has the same problem.

20

I’m opposed to shock collars, but for no real reason. Any punishment scheme involves applying something averse, or removing something desired, in response to unwanted behavior. Why shocking is inherently worse than anything else I really don’t know. If you are going to train a dog using a punishment scheme, then any punishment is inherently cruel, otherwise it wouldn’t work.

The thing is this: If you are qualified to properly and not abusively apply a punishment scheme effectively, then you are qualified to use a reinforcement scheme. The added bonus is that reinforcement schemes are inherently more effective. An animal (or child for that matter) will habituate to a punishment–it becomes less effective the more you use it. Reinforcement, if you do it properly, can actually become more effective over time. It’s up to you to learn how to train an animal and to take it seriously. For example, a dog doesn’t “know” when it is okay to beg and when it isn’t, and anyone who uses that excuse to feed the dog at the table is only reinforcing the begging.

I would recommend visiting Calling All Pets. There aren’t alot of links, but perhaps you can email and ask for a good dog training book. The woman who does this show seems to be well versed in behaviorist psychology. You’d be amazed at what you can accomplish with it. My old behavior prof. used to say that there are no dumb rats. Sure enough, every semester there’d be at least one person in the rat lab claiming to have a retarded rat. The prof. would sit down and within a couple of minutes the rat was doing exactly as the prof. wished. This guy even trained a goldfish to swim through a hoop.

Anyway, my point is that if you don’t know how to do it properly, then the shock collar is only going to become a form of abuse. If you do know how to do it properly, then you don’t need a shock collar in the first place.