My sister’s dog (Belgian Malinois, 10 years old) was bitten by a poisonous snake this weekend in at least two places on her body (a front paw and a shoulder where the front right leg joins the body). She was taken immediately to a 24/7 vet hospital and has been there ever since; she’s still alive but largely unresponsive (will eat a little and walk a little but that’s about all, and she’s usually manic).
It’s not known what kind of snake it was but per the vet it was most likely a rattlesnake. (This is because it’s the most common poisonous snake in the area and because of the amount of blood loss [rattlesnake wounds evidently bleed far more than those of other snakes].) She’s been given the antivennin and today she’s supposed to have a blood transfusion.
So, this dog being like a child to my sister (no judgment please), she is devastated and some major damage control is going to be necessary in the event of the dog’s demise. I’m trying to ascertain what the dog’s chances of survival are. What I’m most worried about with this dog is the age (10 is on the old side for a Malinois- average life expectancy is around 13). I’ve known of other dogs who survived poisonous bites but they were younger.
So questions:
1- Does anybody know how serious a deal it is not to know for certain the kind of snake (i.e. if rattlesnake antivenin is very different from water moccasin a.v.)?
2- Does anybody have any experiences with dogs and poisonous snake bites?
3- Anyone know how much of a difference age makes in snake bites?
Antivenin is generally made from the venom of the type of the snake that caused the bite so rattlesnake antivenin is different from Water Moccasin antivenin. There is no way to say what will happen. Humans and other mammals differ wildly in how they respond to snake bites and different snake bites range from injecting little venom to lots of it. The venom is created by nature to cause nervous system damage but it is often reversible. It depends on the amount of venom injected and the immune system response. Only time will tell although it is a good sign that the dog is still alive but its age certainly is a negative factor.
I’m guessing that the bite occurred in Alabama? With the possible exception of the coral snake (I don’t think there are any of those in Alabama, but I’m not certain), all of the poisonous snakes in that area are pit vipers, which all have a similar sort of venom (a myotoxin, meaning it affects muscles). I think that, having survived for a few days, and being under professional treatment, the odds are very good for her survival, but she’s probably in considerable pain, which would explain the unresponsiveness.
There are coral snakes in Alabama. They range from North Carolina to Louisiana (where I am from). I personally encountered two of them growing up and a few snakes that mimic the way they look. They are the most poisonous snake in the U.S. but they chew rather than strike so it is pretty hard to get bitten by one. If the dog got bitten by a coral snake, it most likely wouldn’t be here. Even people that get bitten by one have to be airlifted to Miami for antivenin treatment or have a charter flight with the antivenin dispatched immediately from Miami.
My dog was bit by a rattler, she crawled off under the porch for a few days and seemed to recover, but she was never the same afterwards. She used to be a real friendly dog that didn’t bite much but she kept biting my kids after she was bit so eventually we put her down.
I am not sure if my information on coral snake bites is old or not. Doing some reading, it seems like there are drugs for it in a few places but the bites are exceptionally rare. I got my information growing up but also from a snake bite center special on TV a couple of years ago.
My sister lives on the Gulf Coast very near (as the hippogriff flies) to Mobile Bay. Rattlesnakes and moccasins are both native, corals aren’t unknown, and they also have some introduced species courtesy of ships that release ballast water. Sometimes exotic [to Alabama] animals just get packed in with the cargo as well, so a naturally very complicated ecosystem becomes moreso.
They’ve also had problems with pythons of late migrating up from Florida where they’ve been introduced by ships or in some cases or escaped/been released by negligent or bored pet owners. The pythons are completely alien but because their natural habitat is hot swampy tropic weather they’ll get into a swamp or a drain pipe and live happy as a pig in sheeee-it for years gobbling up rodents, stray pets, other snakes, etc… Then there’s the coyotes and armadilloes who’ve migrated from the west (the armadilloes following watermelon and other crops and the coyotes following the armadilloes). Add to this that there was an insane explosion of development from the 1980s to the early 21st that destroyed natural habitats of gators, snakes, and other predators and sent them into the residential areas, and then there’s the kudzu that’s eaten so many of the undeveloped acres (i.e. those way off the beach) that can seemingly survive a napalm attack- it’s a big mess.
BUT, rattlesnake is still the most likely. My sister’s lived in the house where this happened for 25 years and had many dogs and cats and never had a snake bite, and the only snakes she’s seen on her property are king snakes and harmless “greenies” (though she’s run over many rattlesnakes over the years off her property). Her back yard has lots and lots of natural and planted foliage and courtyards and it surrounds her swimming pool, and the dog was allowed to roam the fenced yard each night before coming in.
The dog- who I’ll admit that I’ve never liked- is a loud and obnoxious and agressive bitch (don’t go there) so it was surprising to them that she didn’t bark when the snake attacked. She just came in with her paw bleeding and acting scared (which is completely unlike her). The torso bite wasn’t discovered until later when she started spewing blood (I didn’t realize how much blood there was with a snake bite, but part of the venom’s attack is to thin the blood).
Another reason it’s believed rattlesnake over water moccasin is that moccasins very possibly would have bitten many more times. Anyone who grows up in the woods in the Deep South knows to run like hell if you see one.
Rattlesnakes basically want to be left alone. If a dog or a cow or a horse or a person comes near them they may strike as a matter of self defense or fear, but then usually they’ll go back underground or into the bushes or rocks; for lack of a better word they’re “cowardly” where creatures too big to eat are concerned.
Water moccasins are aggressive little fuckers who’ll chase you, bite you repeatedly, forge checks on your account, pick up your kids from school and call you then hang up each night at dinnertime if you let them. It’s almost a commandment that it is your duty to kill one anytime you can.
And perhaps I shouldn’t mention but I will: this being my sister, she’s already tried to flush out the snake with various means, not just to kill it but because she’s intent on somehow trapping and torturing it with sulfur and then feeding it while still alive to hogs or a king snake if there’s any way possible. This being no sadism mind, but revenge for the biting of her beloved dog (and by now I’m sure Obama is somehow connected in the conspiracy). The fact that she has a near phobia of snakes has me less concerned than I might otherwise be about her actually pulling this off. (I’ve no concern for the feelings of a rattlesnake, but don’t really want her to have to get antivenin and coagulants.)
There is no way to accurately predict the dogs chances as there are so many unknown factors such as the species, size and age of the snake, whether it had envenomated recently, any underlying medical conditions the dog might have, etc. The fact that it has survived a couple days is encouraging but a full recovery could take some time. One patient we had we saw for weeks until she started showing marked improvement. It broke our hearts when she was bitten again a year later and did not survive.
This dog already had a severe personality problem (e.g. she’s actually been kicked out of obedience school) so hopefully if there’s a personality change she’ll be more docile. There are no kids, fortunately.
You are absolutely right about that. They are the Hitler of U.S. snakes. I have killed too many to count with a shotgun and a .22 rifle. I once had one attack the side of the canoe that I was fishing in and it pissed me off so badly that I gently casted my lure overboard in a fit of madness and hooked it in its side and and yanked it up. That wasn’t a rational move to say the least. I wanted to throw the whole pole overboard but I was able to cut the line quickly and it swam off with the lure still in its side. They are the only aggressive snake in the U.S. and they should all be tortured and killed.
That’s something I’d actually wondered: if you’ve been bitten once, does it help you if you’re bitten in the future (antibodies, immunity, etc.). Apparently the answer is no.
If anything it can make it worse. A good friend’s brother has had multiple rattlesnake bites ( he’s bred some albinos and plus is a snake chaser of the worst kind - an occasionally careless one ) and had multiple resulting hospital stays. The upshot is that he has become sensitized to the antivenin to the point where he had an anaphylactic response ( to the antivenin treatment ) last time. He says “next time” ( hopefully he is getting too old for this shit ) he won’t accept treatment, as it is liable to kill him more readily than the venom.
As to the OP, too many potential variables as noted. But best of luck to your sister’s unpleasant-sounding Belgian ( a breed that I’ve noticed seems more prone to “shy-sharpness” than average ).
By the way, I’d sure try to talk her out of her vengeance campaign. Not for moral reasons, but emotional people can get stupidly careless and you don’t want to have to visit her in the hospital.
I read recently that rattlesnake bites in which the snake struck without warning (no rattle) are being reported in increasing numbers. The ecologist who was quoted in the story had been bitten by a silent rattler, and opined that we have been killing all the rattlesnakes that rattle, thus selecting for silent rattlers, and will encounter more and more of them in the future.
I can’t assess whether his theory has any basis in reality but it sounds logical.
It may have been the case here. As mentioned, this dog is hyper as my Jack Russell (though not as sweet) and barks at everything. All of the following are actual examples of things that will send her into barking fits:
*other dogs
*other animals of any kind
*other dogs or animals of any kind on television (really)
*the Free Credit Report dot Com commercial (really and truly- she hears the beginning of it and starts barking)
*shadows
*any kind of light that in her opinion shouldn’t be there
*the sound made when aluminum foil or paper is wadded up (sets her off)
*things nobody else can hear, see, or sense (i.e. she’ll just jump up and run into another room barking)
*the sound of a toilet filling
VERY cranky and easily put upon dog.
Yet, on the night she was bitten there was no barking. She was let out for her nightly walk in the fenced back yard and when she came in she was whining and had fang marks in her paw.
My guess is that she left the area where the pool and courtyards are for the area that’s a lot more overgrown (it’s a very big back yard and most of it’s never mown [sandy soil so there’s not a lot of grass, just some occasional weeds and sea oats and wild plants]), or perhaps in some juniper bushes that are on the far side of the pool, and that the snake bit her perhaps while she was squatting to relieve herself. The lack of barking indicates she never saw or sensed it (because she’d bark if there was as much as a frog in her line of vision), and that it happened so fast she didn’t even get mad but just made a quick retreat.
My sister has another dog- an old collie- who lives exclusively outside who’s fine. She’s put him on a chain in a part of the yard that has no longer has any thick bushes (she had her husband whack some of them down the other day) whenever she’s not outside herself. It’s a long chain but he’s not used to it and is vocally resentful, but “the burnt child is dreading the fire”. (She’s even called me since I’ve gotten home [just yesterday] to tell me to be sure when I walk my dogs that I don’t let them go into any bushes or tall grass- she’s pitifully worried.)
Sampiro - I had a dog struck in the face by an eastern diamondback. She swelled up very big all through her face, neck and chest. I treated her at home with steroids and antibiotics (vet on speed dial on my cellphone) and she pulled through. I don’t know how much venom she was hit with, but I know she was taunting (or trying to play with) a 5’ rattler who was probably 10" in diameter at it’s biggest point. Good luck to the dog. I know from your stories how your family is about your dogs.
After some woods near our house were cleared a neighbor’s Bassett was bitten by a copperhead. Although they apparently will often give a dry bite, this one wasn’t and the 4 year old female became deathly ill, symptoms like you describe. They were able to find one dose of CH antivenin (at an astounding cost) and administer heit to her and she did eventually pull through. Here’s hoping you meet with the same success.
Besides the good info and advice already here, let me throw out a heads up to a bona fide expert on snakes. Perhaps he’ll have some expertise on treatment as well.
Oh Crotalus…
ETA: Btw, a week later and another, larger copperhead showed up in the same yard. Your sister might want to direct her attention, instead of revenge, on if there was a particular reason that precipitated the incident in the first place.
A few things. I admit to having just skimmed the thread, so if I repeat anything anyone has said, please forgive.
Since there was a torso bite, a coral snake can be ruled out. They can’t open their mouths wide enough to inflict a bite like that. Pit vipers (rattlers, copperheads, cottonmouths) can.
The most common antivenin stocked by hospitals is called Wyeth Crotalid Polyvalent Antivenin. It is made by injecting horses with the venoms of three species of rattlesnakes (easter and western diamondbacks and a South American species) as well as the fer-de-lance. Antibodies to the venom are isolated from the horses’ blood to make the serum. This serum is used as a generic pit viper antidote throughout this hemisphere.
The dog is very likely to survive, based primarily on the fact that it has survived this long.
Will the Wyeth Crotalid Polyvalent Antivenin just help in bites from rattlers or will some protection be afforded from, say, moccassins or copperheads as well? (If it’s “Crotalid”…)
