Watched the first two episodes.
Just deleted it from my DVR listings.
Sorry, but for me this show officially sucks.
Dude, is there any reason you consistently misspell Whedon’s name? Not a criticism; I’m just curious as to whether it’s a private joke.
I almost didn’t watch this episode. Really – a pop star with an obsessed fan? I wish the episode had ended with Rayna killing herself with an overdose.
I have to agree that so far, the show just isn’t any fun. I can accept a ludicrous premise if the story draws me in. But I’ll give it a longer chance.
So, now we know that the Active designations are reused; they’re on at least their second Sierra.
The best moment of the show was right at the end, when Echo and Sierra make eye contact, and Echo gives a little shake of the head because they’re being observed. Means that, even in her wiped state, Echo is thinking.
ETA: I will say that one improvement this show has over Whedon’s previous shows is the fight scenes. More realistic. I want that FBI dude on my side in an alley fight.
(bolding mine) - if memory serves - they didn’t intentionally give her those memories - I don’t even know how to word this - they were part of one of the personalities they used to create the whole - I’m not sure that they were aware of that at the time they built the implant. They certainly were not aware that the person she was sent to negotiate with was the same person that brutally raped that personality.
Basically, all the Actives get continually mind-raped by the nature of the Dollhouse. (Can you imagine a worse violation than having your mental identity erased, and somebody else’s personality jammed into your brain? Good thing it’s impossible.)
In the scene in the pilot where we encountered Caroline before she became Echo, didn’t Olivia Williams’ character say something about a 5-year commitment? And it was ostensibly voluntary, although it seemed like Caroline was under duress. Did all the Actives volunteer for the Dollhouse?
I’m not sure I really understand some of you.
The show is supposed to be creepy. The organization is supposed to be the bad guys. The premise of this show is that you can convert anybody to anything you want. They’re completely moldable to your every whim.
In a way that sounds really pretty cool. But if you were in that situation and actually thought about it for more than a few minutes you’d come to the conclusion that, yeah, pretty fucking creepy. The very first shot we see is the pre-Echo Dushku, in tears and breaking down while barely voluntarily signing a document to give up her life and her brain for a few years.
What did you expect of this show? To completely gloss over the implications of what this technology would mean?
Look, if you think the concept of this show is boring, then you’re entitled to your opinion. This show just isn’t for you.
But if you signed on to the premise and now you’re complaining that you’re immediately reminded of the concept’s implications, I honestly don’t know what you expected.
Nope, just screwing up.
They expected Eliza the Vampire Slayer.
Oddly, yes. I hadn’t seen any commercials for the show. If it had not been mentioned as a new Whedon show on this board I might have missed it all together. The premise, as I understood it, was people are reprogrammed to be spies and assassins. I was expecting something more like a grrl-powered The Avengers or Mission: Impossible.
The show’s primary focus seems to be on people reprogrammed to be a client’s perfect companion/sexbot, which is creepier than expected for me. Seeing people who “voluntarily” signed up to be anonymous unpaid sexbots is creepy. Yes, the Dollhouse tries to protect the Actives, but to put someone else at risk (for example, Echo’s motorcycle side in the first episode could easily have been far more injurious) for something as stupid and lacking-in-patriotism as forced sexwork is much creeper than the show I was expecting.
From the storyteller standpoint, it makes sense. They want to highlight that the Actives can be given any personality and set of abilities. So they create one that is a simpering fangirl. So she’s not a superagent in disguise, even though we’ve seen that with the right personality, she’s got the ability (see assault on Mexican hostage takers from previous episode).
But from the story perspective, it doesn’t make sense. Okay, drawing attention, getting taken captive, then following her back might make some sense. Maybe. But how could you count on the bad guy taking her captive? First, did she intentionally go off in the dark by herself to be captured? That doesn’t fly. She didn’t seem aware of her role. So now you have to add an element of accident to the possibility it happens. Furthermore, what is to say the bad guy doesn’t just whack her and stuff her in a closet? Why does he take her hostage? Well, because he’s actually in contact with Rayne and is using the hostage to manipulate Rayne. But they didn’t know that. It doesn’t make sense.
Of course they pointed out that Sierra’s handler is pretty lame (oh, this is the new Sierra, what happened to the last Sierra?) But that doesn’t make sense from the Organization’s standpoint. If you have a handler that does a poor job protecting his active, your investment, then you aren’t going to give him another chance to get another one whacked, are you? Ack, that’s frustrating. It doesn’t make sense.
Eh, “The Train Job” was one of the worst episodes of Firefly, and only had a few redeeming qualities that brought people back for the second episode. And the actual 2 part pilot “Serenity” (same name as the movie) was largely reshot before finally getting put on the DVD (and being scheduled to air - did it actually air?)
Again, this show has been jiggered by the Fox execs, so Whedon has not had free reign.
No, she was fine as the assault squad commando in the abduction rescue. Rather, Sierra’s have a lazy, worthless handler. Yet still manage to get the job done (“She got the job done.”)
As much as I need to stop with the Buffy/Dollhouse comparisons, I feel a need to point out we don’t know that Sierra’s handler is why the last Sierra was killed. It’s possible he’s being a jerk now because he got fond of the last Sierra and is now hurting over her loss. Just as it was a bad idea for watchers to get attached to their slayers, it’s probably a bad idea for the handlers to get attached to the actives. Right now it’s easy to imagine Boyd is uncomfortable with Echo’s work and has some sympathy for her. I’m sure this is going to play into story arc, probably sometime soon.
Well, they’ve already established that the Actives can be programmed to do things without being aware of why they are doing them. Hell, they demonstrate this in this episode. They discuss it explicitly in the Big Pretty Office – Echo thinks she’s a backup singer, but is programmed as a bodyguard. She has no idea why she feels compelled to stick close with Rayne, but she does. The manager asks Echo why she’s not with Rayne…
Echo: She fired me!
Manger: Does that matter?
Echo: blink No. I don’t know why, but it doesn’t.
Hell, they’ve even demonstrated that the programming can be incredibly precise and she still has no awareness of what she’s doing. When Echo is Motorcycle Chick, she suddenly shifts and walks out of the club at what appears to be a specific time. She’s still Motorcycle Chick, blabbing to Boyd about “I met a guy!” but the clock hits 5pm and she suddenly walks out to the van to go to her “treatment.”
I don’t think it’s a great leap to figure that if Stalker Guy believes he’s in love with her, he’s going to want to have a “talk” with Rayne about her “infidelity” and rub it in her face/demand answers. That’s human nature.
Of course it’s not absolutely precise, but none of the missions are. It’s a calculated risk. Hell, they got bit in the ass with this when Hostage Negotiator Echo turned out to also have traumatic memories of the exact same kidnapper that she was negotiating with. On that one they took the risk and lost (at least temporarily).
In addition to what The Devil’s Grandmother said, we don’t even know if it’s the same handler. The former Sierra’s handler might have been fired or reassigned to desk duty for all we know. We also now know that part of a handler’s duties is to eliminate the Active to prevent discovery should the mission go sideways, so it may not have been a lapse on his part at all.
I suppose we don’t know the handler got her killed. I’m just going with what was presented in that episode. He wanders off to get food and leaves Boyd alone for an extended period of time, and has the lame excuse that his girl is just a backup, and not in play yet. He comments on the attentiveness that Boyd has. “There you go playing detective.” Hell, there’s the initial remark made to Boyd when we learn Sierra is going to be in play. “You won’t like that guy.”
Now maybe they’ll have some history later that explains his current behavior as response to previous incidents, but what I get now is that he’s a jackass and doesn’t care if his active survives as long as she does her job. Well, getting too close is one thing, but shouldn’t you at least have some concern to protect a company asset?
Neither of your examples feel like the same thing. “If the situation gets dicey, get yourself kidnapped.” ?
But would he necessarily keep the other fan as a hostage, or just kill her then wave that in Rayne’s face?
That was the whole point of the lines about a “new Sierra. What happened to the old Sierra?” If it wasn’t the same handler, there’s no point bringing it up with that guy. It was the same handler, that’s whay his response was “She got the job done”, not “Wasn’t my Active”.
More like: “If the stalker makes an attempt on Rayne’s life, but is neither taken out nor apprehended, insist on getting back inside and walk alone when you do.” The security protocol was probably already established (i.e. clear all the civvies out of the theatre, anyone needing to get back in has to go to the backstage door), so it really wouldn’t be hard to make her act to isolate herself near the theatre should something like that happen.
Calculated risk. Could they be sure he wouldn’t just kill her on the spot? No, of course not, and it’s clear from their constant mentions of mission risk-assessment that they expect to occasionally lose an Active on a mission (which is why high-risk missions have been stated to cost more – they might need the extra money to offset the cost of replacing the Active).
On the other hand, if he immediately kills Audra/Sierra, he loses his bargaining chip and may not be able to convince Rayne to meet up with him. If he can smuggle a sniper rifle past security, he’s probably smart enough to realize that. He uses Audra as an item of trade – her for Rayne (“You meet me, I won’t shoot her in the brains.”). It’s also clear that he desperately wanted to confront her (“Who is this? And how is she your number one fan?”), and he needed Audra to do that.
Sierra being kidnapped was not Sierra’s mission.
Sierra was there as a backup in case something happened to Echo - meaning if the crazed person’s next attempt on Rayne took out Echo instead (as it had to other members of Rayne’s crew earlier).
That was my thought. But then, as I was saying, from an internal story perspective it doesn’t make any sense for Sierra to remain a giddy fangirl.
Sure, she needs to appear a giddy fangirl, and it is easier to make her one, but when the guy abducts her, why doesn’t she have a superagent switch? Surely she is physically capable of turning the tables on killer fan, and wouldn’t it be smart to have him kidnap her, then she turns around and whacks him, end of threat? No? So why didn’t they think of that, instead of have her kidnapped and then try to figure out where she is by the tracking device they forgot to install and take the time to warm up their commando team that apparently is not on standby, which gives time for Echo to put Rayne in jeopardy. Sure, it worked out for the best, Echo actually had the best plan because it solved the real threat to Rayne, but again, they didn’t know that. From their perspective, the smartest thing is get someone in close proximity to the killer and then turn the tables, end of threat.
So you’ll tell me it’s impossible for her to have two personality implants that are such opposites, but why couldn’t they make a super-spy personality that can pretend to be a fangirl? Huh?
Again, from the show production standpoint the idea is to portray very different personality types, not all of them kick-ass babes. But from the story standpoint, it doesn’t make sense.
You say getting kidnapped wasn’t the plan, just something that happened. So what was the plan? How were they to activate her? How would she provide the bodyguard protection if Echo was out of commission? Echo’s persona had a tendency to toughness, so it was in character for her to toss that photographer over the rail, but how would Sierra’s fangirl pull that out?
They said, “She got herself kidnapped” which makes it seem like a deliberate action, though I suppose could have been an unconscious action on her part. But it seems weird. It sounds like a horrible plan from the master strategist position of ensuring the client is protected. “Okay, we’ll surround her with a superwimp who is too giddy to think straight, and then we’ll program her to do stupid things like walk around backstage alone so she can get kidnapped, and then once she’s taken, we’ll call up the commandos and have them get their gear on and leisurely cruise out there and sneak in.” Why weren’t the commandos ready once the first attempt was made? The gun goes off, commandos on standby!
Yes, it was.
In the Big Pretty Office:
Dominick: Sierra’s been kidnapped.
DeWitt: So she drew focus from Rayna. Good call, Mr. Dominick.
Emphasis mine.
Drawing focus from Rayna was the back up plan, in the event that Echo was unable to take the stalker out.
I see both your points - I don’t think they planned that far ahead… Echo’s mission was to protect Rayne, that doesn’t mean that her mission was to take out the stalker. Clearly she would take out any immediate threat (the paprazzi) in the vicinity, but her real mission was similar to any bodygaurd’s - just one that could get even closer than the "muscle’.
Sierra’s mission, apparently - and I concede the point - was to draw attention away from Rayne. Why they didnt program her to take out the stalker once it happened? No clue - and likely only becuase they needed Echo to be the hero and for the rest of the story (Echo protecting Rayne from Rayne) to take place.