Don't even try to tell us it's not plagiarized!

Actually, most students enjoy broadening their horizons and learning about a variety of things, as they go to college to learn. It’s mainly the people who go to college to get a degree who bag on the electives classes. This, of course, stems from the fact that colleges were not originally designed to be a diploma-exchange business, and those few that are (e.g. ITT Tech) are looked down upon by pretty much everyone.

In other words, you have the wrong idea about what college is about.

You got 4 years of English Lit and none of English Comp? Man…you got stiffed. Dang.

I remember writing book reports and fact essays and such quite a bit younger than high school too. I remember book reports as far back as the third grade, but that’s when we still had dictation tests and stuff too. So it was the essentials of writing. We were certainly taught not to copy directly by the 4th grade. Eg/ If a kid copied the book’s synopsis from the back cover, he or she would have been pnelized and probably have to do it over. (IIRC, that usually happened when a kid hadn’t read a book, so often the teacher would give the kid a make-up assignment or extra attention in case it was a literacy issue.)

By the sixth grade our projects were certainly more involved and we had to write essay-type papers for history and geography projects. So really, we were learning history as well as getting foundation skills for essay writing. By then too plagiarism would have gotten us in trouble. We’d lose marks for copying directly from our sources.

But really formal essay structuring, where they drilled all the rules into your head I remember being in high school. It felt much more like “preparing for college”.

I don’t know why some people want to attack that guy for having a different point of view than they do. I’ve noticed it before when people discuss literature. It boggles their mind that some people, despite learning what literature means, have no use for it. It makes perfect sense that someone that is practically minded wouldn’t like reading about things that are impractal.

But, no, not having the same preference as you has to mean he wasn’t taught properly. Would you say the same thing about other subjects? And why is it okay to start using ad hominem attacks if you really have a point? Could it be, you really have no argument against him?

His description of Romeo and Juliet is quite accurate, and you know it. If you were actually taught anything in school, you would know that deconstructing classical literature is a perfectly legitimate field. The fact that you were taught that there’s one possible opinion of the work, one that’s positive, means that you had the lousy education. A good education teaches you to think for yourself.

BTW. Stop harping on his language usage. You understood it, so that’s sufficient. It’s not like I haven’t seen each of you use the same level of communication. It’s the ideas, not the words, that matter. If anything, being able to express a complex idea in simple words makes your language superior.

It doesn’t worry me that he has no use for literature. That’s perfectly reasonable. It’s his assertion that literature is useless.

That assertion was not just made in the sense of “I don’t feel it is useful for me.” It was made in the sense of, “It is useless, in a general, objective sense.” And his suggestion that understanding literature has something to do with knowing Middle English is completely asinine, and demonstrates that he’s more interested in willful ignorance than in any real critique of literature as a field.

As for his take on Romeo and Juliet: sure, it was a reasonably accurate summary of the plot. But just because there are multiple interpretations possible in literature doesn’t mean that some aren’t better than others. And some are just so trite and simplistic that they an reasonably be dismissed as the work of someone who is as dumb as a bag of hammers.

Leaving aside the summary itself, his actual “analysis” consisted of a lament that Romeo and Juliet is a bad example for teens (“great message for teens, by the way,” he said), and of asking, “How many teens have killed themselves the last 400 years because of this story?” That’s not analysis or interpretation; it’s the whining of someone who either never even tried to understand the work, or who tried and couldn’t understand it.

I’m not a huge fan of Romeo and Juliet myself, and if someone doesn’t like it, i have no problem with that. But my criticism doesn’t consist of some ahistorical rant about how Shakespeare is a bad example for teenagers, and an enabler of teen suicide.

If you don’t understand or like something, at least have the balls to just say, “I don’t understand Shakespeare,” or “I tried reading Shakespeare, but i could never really get into it.” That’s completely fine. But when you take your own dislike for literature and generalize it in order to draw a conclusion that literature is useless, then you’re probably just trying to compensate for something.

No, it is not.

They did not have a mutual suicide pact. They had a con that went terribly wrong because of bad timing and the cowardice of the friar. That is the nature of the tragedy, not some emo die together bullshit.

The “for some reason they disliked the other family” is not a throwaway part of the plot, it is crucial to the tragedy. And that the kids are only teenagers is immaterial, and only of concern to modern readers unfamiliar with earler mores. Juliet is 13, and her father comments that her mother gave birth to her when she was not much older. The parents are in favor of Juliet marrying Paris.

Not an accurate description at all, no.

I bet you think American History X is racist, too, because it has Neo Nazis in it. You fucking idiot.

Pop quiz! Did the Third Reich produce The Merchant of Venice unedited? (Spoiler: No, they didn’t.) So, retard, what does that tell you about the play? (This paper (PDF WARNING) gives some examples of changes that were made, starting on p13.)

Actually, there’s some discussion of whether they would have been considered young by the audience at the time. Last I heard, yes, while it would not have been out of the question for them to get married, they were still a fairly young couple, and, as such, could also be expected to do the kind of stupid melodromatic shit that teenagers are notorious for.

OK, I don’t venture into Pit debates that often and I have a feeling that I’m going to regret this, but I can’t resist Shakespeare threads. I’m going to admit up front that I tend to get a bit defensive about The Merchant of Venice; it’s one of my favorite works to teach precisely because it’s so complicated.

Shakespeare isn’t a moralist. Writing off one of his works because it doesn’t teach good lessons for teenagers is missing the point. He’s a playwright, and one of the reasons why he’s a great playwright is that he writes compelling, tightly balanced conflicts between people of different world-views, since drama is all about conflict. It’s a pretty safe bet that he wanted people to leave the theater arguing about whether Romeo and Juliet were right to defy their parents – with luck, they’d take the argument to the nearest tavern, and the rest of the customers would overhear, and next day there would be more people wanting to see the play. It’s both good theater and good business to write plays that give voice to multiple points of view, and most of the time Shakespeare is so successful at this that it’s hard to tell what he thought about any given character or position.

The Merchant of Venice is one of the best examples of this. Sure, Shylock’s the antagonist and a would-be murderer, but he’s also a complicated, multi-dimensional character who has got a legitimate point. Antonio has made an enemy of Shylock through his anti-Semitism, and then come crawling to him as soon as he needs money. Christian Venice is a society of hypocrites; they own slaves, practice revenge, and depend heavily on the Jewish money-lenders that they also casually abuse. Shylock points all of this stuff out, and nobody denies that he’s telling the truth. (He’s also, incidentally, so much in love with his dead wife that the loss of a ring she gave him absolutely shatters him – a tiny detail that has no bearing on the plot of the play, but which speaks a lot about him as a character, especially in comparison to Bassanio’s and Gratiano’s willingness to give away rings given to them under similar circumstances.)

Is Merchant anti-Semitic? Maybe; it does imply that Christian values are superior to Jewish ones (when the Christian characters actually manage to practice them, which they often don’t), and the happy(ish) ending does involve two out of three Jewish characters converting to Christianity – although Shakespeare doesn’t present Shylock’s forced conversion as unproblematic. I can certainly imagine myself giving an A on an essay to a student who argued that it was an anti-Semitic play, even though I don’t personally agree with this interpretation. But I would also expect the student to grapple seriously with the elements in the play that pull against this reading, to acknowledge the fact that many critics, actors, and audiences have not seen it as anti-Semitic, and to articulate a well-reasoned response to these opposing arguments. Furthermore, I would expect that response to be based on a close, careful reading of the text itself and some knowledge of its historical context, not the fact that there were performances in Nazi Germany (there have, after all, also been performances in Israel, so the stage history doesn’t prove anything by itself).

These are the skills that English literature classes are designed to teach – to pay attention to the details of the text, to pull those details together into a focused interpretation, and to address and respond to potential objections to that interpretation. It’s not about memorization, it’s about close reading and careful argument. As it happens, these are also essential skills for lawyers, which is one of the reasons so many undergraduate English majors end up in law school. (For what it’s worth, I agree that trying to use Merchant to learn about contract law would be exceedingly silly.)

Excellent point!

What if I plagiarized a part of Wikipedia that I wrote myself? Would I still need to cite it?

Yes.

First, anyone can sign up for Wikipedia using whatever name or alias they want (assuming it’s not already taken), so the person reading your plagiarized piece has no reliable evidence that it was you who wrote it.

Second, even renowned scholars, when they draw on their own work, generally cite the work in question. And if they lift a whole chapter or section or article of their previous work to use in a new publication, they will usually put a notice in the front of the book or in the footnotes, along the lines of:

Maybe not Middle English, but being able to express yourself well carries it’s weight in business and life.

My personal example: I have been a decent writer ever since I decided to read The Hobbit in 6th grade. That book kindled a love for reading that persists to this day. Due to that, I have at least an above average reading comprehension for my grade level all throughout school. My boss at work likes this and I am the guy who he goes to when he needs someone to proofread memos and reports or to write things that go to management. Learning literature may have been boring, but knowing the language and being able to express it fluently helps in ways you cannot imagine

Word.

Middle English isn’t even taught to anyone except English majors who choose to take classes in Chaucer, AFAIK.

Agree totally. They were definitely at the lower end of the bell curve. My point was to note that Lady Capulet had been preggers at Juliet’s age, according to the play, so the conceit that the parents thought Juliet was too young to marry was erroneous. I assume that Elizabethans considered Italians of the previous half-century to be quite exotic, and so could accept the marital conventions at face value, even if they were not their own.

And to continue the critique (and the sidetrack):

No, they didn’t even know of the relationship’s existence. Nurse knew. Friar Laurence knew, but the parents did not know that Juliet had really gotten smitten with Romeo at the masked ball. In fact, they slapped Tybalt down when he got agitated about a Montague being there.

There is something to be said about not going off half-cocked on something only muzzily remembered.

Quite. I credit being a voracious reader from a young age with a lot of my facility with language now. Unfortunately, I don’t have as much time to read as I used to, and I’m starting to lose bits and pieces.

Speaking as someone with a B.A. in English Lit who took a Chaucer class where everything we read was in Middle English, you don’t really need to *learn *it to read it. Granted, you make decent use of footnotes for some of the vocabulary, but it’s pretty comprehensible to a native speaker of modern English. I found it helps a lot if you speak it all out loud, especially in the beginning, 'cause some of the biggest differences are in spelling. (Pronunciation has shifted, too, but that doesn’t matter for reading comprehension purposes.)

*Old *English, on the other hand, is pretty well mutually incomprehensible. Think Beowulf.

Yeah, I seem to recall one old prof who could actually read and speak Old English. No one else did.
The Middle English was quite easy to read aloud (we each had to take a turn at that in class).

We had to each pick a passage from The Canterbury Tales, memorize it, and recite it for the class, with proper Middle English pronunciation. It was actually kind of fun. (Well, for me, anyway.)

Our professor just picked a passage and had us read it. I liked it. It sure was easier to pronounce than some of our modern English words.

Richard Thompson translated a modern song into Middle English for his 1000 years of popular music shows. Marry, Ageyn Hic Hev Donne Yt.

I had a lot of fun with “nightingale.” :smiley:

Excellent post, again.
Whenever we cover short stories or poetry in my composition classes, I always tell the students that it’s the process of analysis that helps them the most, since I realize many of them will not be pursuing English degrees. To analyze means to break a unit down into smaller parts so as to understand them better and by extension the unit as a whole. This can, of course, apply to many other situations besides Lit. Once they get used to that idea and see some relevance, most of them do pretty well with the analysis, even though it’s not their chosen subject.