I don’t believe that there were many Indians living in Texas then
I don’t think that’s how it’s used here. If you do, then feel free to think that. I can’t convince you otherwise.
But when you use it as an ironic insult, you are adopting one particular meaning, and then inverting it.
The idea that “acting white” means anything at all is racial essentialism. If you think there is a white way to act, then the expression probably doesn’t bother you.
Since, if the “white” in that phrase is racial, the rascist connotation of the idiom is immediately, unambiguously evident upon the slightest of inspection, your balking at objection towards it has to be knee-jerk. Considering criticism to be “excessively PC” when its aimed towards a form a bigotry that you view as normal is common, because it implies you (or your peers) were “wrong” for all these years, which is painful. It’s ironic you’d call critics of the phrase excessively PC and then get offended when I point out to you that “1940’s-1950’s”, “small-town”, and “Texas” aren’t qualifiers you’d want to use all at once to describe behavior as not being racist.
I agree that the first usage doesn’t show racism, except that it is the only way I can think of that it wouldn’t be offensive, and extremely rare. Also, it doesn’t make fun of racism so much as it makes fun of a racist.
And I think it’s bizarre to believe that it doesn’t have origins in race. At least one professor traces it back to early 20th century southern colloquialism.
Daniel
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No, you’re not. Are you being deliberately obtuse?
If you sarcastically acuse a racist of being “white”, you’re not saying he is in fact “black”. That’d just be dumb. You’re using a racist phrase mockingly to belittle a racist.
If you’re being bossy, and I roll my eyes and say “Ja wohl, mein kommandant” and fire off a Nazi salute, am I accusing you of not being like a Nazi?
Sarcasm doesn’t necessarily mean the literal opposite is true.
(Are we sure this phrase is racist? It sounds like it, so I agree it’s best avoided, but I’m curious if it really originally referred to skin color or a more metaphorical moral “purity” thing)
saoirse, do you feel the same way about the expression, “call a spade a spade”?
Which is precisely the attitude being mocked when people use the phrase ironically. So again, why is it offensive when used in that manner?
No, I’m not. I’m not saying the implication is that the person is black, but that they are not demonstrating the traits traditionally associated with being white. I should ask you, though, what do you think it m,eans when someone says, “That’s awful white of you?” Sarcastically, I mean.
Sorry, I meant no, I’m not being obtuse. Using the expression is being racist to make fun of a racist. That’s the problem I have with it.
Because in order to use it ironically, you have to agree that the person could be “acting white,” but is not. Again, it doesn’t mock racism; it mocks a racist.
Well, I don’t use it, but I don’t know if it’s racist. To be perfectly honest, I am busy enough discussing just one racially charged expression, so I’d rather not start on that one just now.
No, you don’t, because if you’re using it ironically, you’re mocking the entire concept behind the phrase’s original conception. That’s what makes it ironic.
This says the first recorded use is in 1913. Re citations earliest origin appear to be rooted less in a direct racial differentiation between American blacks & whites and more in cultural distinctions made between Europeans (honest) and non-Europeans (cheats) and the interpersonal ethics involved in transactions. The phase may actually have British colonial roots.
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Well, again, if you sarcastically say “That’s mighy generous of you,” you’re not undermining the definition of generous. You’re accepting the definition, and inverting it for the pruposes of describing the person you’re addressing. But in order for the irony to work, you must also acknowledge the surface meaning of the word, as the definition that would be ordinarily applied.
(bolding mine)
My apologies to Anaamika. I had thought it was an entirely American product.
I think we can all agree that eleanor was not using this expression to mock Martin for being a racist (if she was, I apologize). Therefore, the gist of her phrase is that his mocking the homeless is not noble.
The problem is that her phrase equates “white” with “noble.” That’s no good, given the phrase’s history.
I’ve heard it used in a similar way, and indeed I’ve had to bite it back. Say I’m discussing politics with someone, and they say, “I don’t think we should pay taxes for animal shelters, but I’m still humane: a quick bullet to the head of a stray animal is plenty humane!” There might be a temptation to respond with, “Well, that’s mighty white of you.”
Since I’m not sarcastically suggesting that they’re a white supremacist, what am I suggesting there? I’m suggesting that they’re not white, i.e., not noble. And that’s an icky equation, so I bite it back.
An expression that has no racial origins is far less problematic (see “niggardly”). That doesn’t mean it’s completely unproblematic, however: if you’re a competent speaker and want to make sure your audience gets your message without any unintended connotations, you ought to take their possible misconstruals into consideration, and decide whether choosing a specific word or phrase is worth the risk that they’ll not understand what you mean. That’s not an ethical matter: it’s a pragmatic matter.
Daniel
You might, if you offered some reasoning for your assumption that the phrase has a racist origin.
My reason for thinking that it doesn’t is that the english word “white” has carried that precise connotation of “honourable” for hundreds of years, and the idiom contains no modifiers to indicate that is connected to race, and nowhere else is it used as an abstracted qualitative sign with a racial sense.
The usage doesn’t even seem to fit the details of the dichotomy of race stereotypes of the time, and isn’t applied to the most common superlatives where racists held that whites held an advantage over blacks.
How is starting with the premise that it’s a racist phrase and ignoring everything that suggests it’s race-neutral going to get you anywhere except into a circular argument?
As for “calling a spade a ‘spade’,” it should be noted additionally that the phrase is based on the fact that most people who don’t know any better call a spade a ‘shovel.’" You won’t get very far trying to dig a hole with a shovel. Small shovels were commonly used in the home, whether in pantry or in the coalshed – and looked similar enough that when urban people saw spades they called them “shovels,” not knowing the proper term.
Daniel, I was really hoping that this not be a referendum on whether eleanor is a good person or not. Gadarene, I also don’t want a referendum on whether I am a hypocrite, or gibbering idiot. A stopped clock is right twice a day.
I have an ex-brother-in-law who is openly racist, and uses the expression ironically. If he believes that you’re not dealing with him squarely, he’ll say “that’s mighty white of you” in a sarcastic tone. Racists do understand sarcasm.
Or, as it turns out, astro might. 
See post # 53. They’re coming fast & furious here, it probably wasn’t up when you sent this.
That’s fine, but as I said I am quite busy enough the “white of you,” and can’t discuss that one right now.