Doper lawyers: Is public interest law a pipe dream?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’m trying to decide between 150k worth of debt at a top school and subtantially less debt at a good school with a lower reputation. I don’t want to work for a big firm, so the only way I’m gonna pay off the 150k is with Loan Repayment Assistance Programs for public interest jobs. Is the market for people interested in this kind of law strong enough to make this a reasonable decision? Given that many of these programs pay %100 of law school debt, why do so few people go into PI?

I know that in some sense, the answer is: it depends. It depends on how well I do in law school and exactly what kind of PI work I want to do. Assume that I’m in the top 25% of my class and I’m willing to do any sort of serious PI work (i.e. ACLU instead of PETA).

Am I crazy to bet $150,000 on getting such a job?

2

Big firms and public interest law aren’t the only options out there, and not all lawyers must be shysters or crusaders. There are plenty of jobs where someone with a law degree can get reasonable pay and make a significant contribution to society. Take a look at firms with significant pro bono and community secondment schemes. Take a look at specialist trial work in an area where you’d be retained by someone like the ACLU. Take a look at a government job, perhaps. Take a look at doing commercial work for a few years to pay off your loan and get some experience before taking that lower-paid but socially beneficial job.

It all depends on what precisely you see yourself doing, I suppose. Surely, in the long run, paying off your loans are a comparatively small concern when opposed to doing something that makes you feel good, and that you can be proud of.

Btw, like your name. Life of Pi?

3

Perhaps I’ve heard too many horror stories of students being saddled by debt. It seems that everyone is forced to either take a high-paying corporate job or to find a job that qualifies for loan assistance. But then, I’m beginning to think that law students are fond of complaining about law school. :slight_smile:

Am I wrong to fear that my options will be severely limited by my debt?

Oh, and yes. I’m a huge fan of Life of Pi.

4

You know, I’m an Australian, and our system is far less likely than the American one to saddle students with debts. Thus perhaps I’m unqualified to discuss that particular aspect.

Even so, I think I’m in your position, only 5 years or so on. It’s not the specific hassle of paying off university debt that is my problem, but more that it’d be nice to do more than pay my rent etc - eventually I’ll run into home loans and car loans and so on, and will perhaps be in the position you fear. Friends in commercial firms and in other jobs in the wider world have a lot more money to throw around than I do, and I guess I’m a little jealous of that.

I suppose the question is how committed you are to practising law in the public interest, and whether you’re willing to forego the massive salaries and so on. That’s a long-term decision, a lot more than just your debt.

Maybe it’s a decision you can’t take before law school, but it might not be a decision you have to take before then. Go to law school, do various internships and part-time jobs at public interest places, see if they interest you. If they do, and you can handle the cash aspect, go for some of those jobs. If not, find a more mainstream law / business job with better pay, if possible.

5

No, you’re right to be very worried. If you take on $150,000 in debt, the bulk of that debt will be unsubsidized, so that when you graduate, you’ll be looking at about $180,000 once the accrued interest is tacked on. That means monthly loan payments of $2,000 to $4,000 depending on the types of loans. (Of course, the first thing you’ll do is consolidate your loans and spread your payments out over 25 years, lowering them quite a bit but locking you in to your debt for a long, long time.) And my knowledge of LRAPs is that they do not pay for all of your debt; instead, they give you a small amount to assist you in paying your debt. Some programs will pay all of your debt after you’ve been in public interest for ten years or so, but up until that point, you will still be responsible for paying the debt.

So what happens if you hate the law? A lot of lawyers do. A number of my friends have left the law because they didn’t like it. Well, if you hate it, you’ve got a lot of debt that you’ll still have to pay off. That will impact your ability to get married, have kids, buy a house, take certain jobs. You need to be aware of that.

But you also should know that corporate law (i.e., as practiced by the big firms) will give you opportunities that you won’t get otherwise. The compromise that some of my friends reached was to start in private law firms, and then to move to public interest after a few years. If you live frugally, you could pay off your $150K law school debt in three years or so working for a private law firm. At that point, you would have acquired skills and training in the law, you would be debt-free, and you could then move to a public interest firm of your choice. Given that most firms require or strongly encourage pro bono work, you’d have the chance to do some work with different public interest organizations to see whether you wanted to work there.

So, if I were in your position, I’d go to the law school that would give me the least amount of debt, unless I thought that working at a firm for three to five years was a viable option. If I thought I could work at a firm, I’d go to the better school and take on the debt. Just beware the golden handcuffs. :wink:

6

Thanks for the advice, Campion.

The LRAP’s at the schools I’m looking at work like this: for the first three years or so, they make interest-free loans to you so you can pay private and federal debt. After the initial period, they start cancelling these loans. If you work in public interest for 10 years, they will cancel 100% of the loans. If you leave, depending on how many years you’ve put in, they will cancel a certain percentage of your loans.

It’s actually a really good deal, especially the good LRAPs. NYU, for example, will service 100% of your debt if you make below $45,000–in any market.

I’m pretty dedicated to doing public interest law work; I know that there’s always a chance that lawyering won’t be for me, but even if the position is tangentially law-related, the LRAPs will still apply. My bigger concern is that I won’t be able to find a good job because the market is so flooded.

Although I could stop worrying if a great school would give me a full scholarship… hint hint (I like to think that law school deans are the kind of people that frequent the SDMB).

7

These are some of the exact same things I went through when I was looking at law schools about 7 years ago. I ended up at Boalt, which has a really good loan repayment program. Basically, if you work for a nonprofit and are making less than a certain amount (around 50k per year, I think) they will repay 100% of your student loan payments, up to a fairly generous yearly cap. It’s not a conditional loan, so you never have to pay it back.

I used this program when I first graduated law school. I went to law school knowing that I never wanted to work for a big firm. Once I graduated, I worked in the domestic violence field and for about two years, had all of my loan payments covered. Then I switched to civil rights law (disability rights in particular), which, while still worthwhile and “public interest oriented”, is for-profit and therefore doesn’t qualify for loan repayment assistance. However, working at this type of job I make quite a bit more than what I was making in the nonprofit sector, so I can cover my loan payments myself.

So it is possible to find public interest jobs and do the loan repayment assistance thing. It’s also possible to find worthwhile for-profit jobs that aren’t corporate law. But I don’t think your concern about being able to find work is totally unfounded - my experience was that the competition for the public interest jobs was just as intense, or even more intense, than the competition for the big firm jobs. There aren’t that many public interest jobs, largely due to lack of funding, so it isn’t as easy as you might think to land one. It’s always better if you can bring your own job funding to an agency - e.g. get a private or government grant to do a specific legal project, then bring that project to a compatible agency, so that you have funded your own job. Of course, many of those grants are only for a year or two, so there’s always pressure to get re-funded. One of the less fun things about public interest work.

BTW, I took out the maximum amount allowed of the federal student loans, graduated with about $100,000 in debt, and my maximum monthly payment under the straight 10-year plan was around $650 a month, not the thousands that someone else suggested. I have switched to the 30-year plan and now pay about $300 a month. Student debt is “good debt,” as it’s an investment in yourself, so I think that if you really know what law is what you want to do, go for it. But I second the advice given by someone else - try internships, talk to lawyers, do anything you can to get a bit of experience with the field and make sure it’s what you really want, because turnover and burnout in the field is incredibly high. That said, if you’re sure, then go to the best law school you can get into, because you’ll get a better education, have a better shot at the competitive jobs, and be better able to switch locales, since the “lower reputation” schools often teach nuts & bolts law from their home state, and don’t focus on the general legal principles which will serve you in any state. Going low-budget on your law school education is a false economy, in my opinion.

Other advice: contrary to what some others have suggested, I would NOT suggest that you work for a big firm for a couple of years to pay off debts and then switch to public interest. Trust me on this one, I know lots of people who had tried that one and it NEVER HAPPENS. You get used to the big salary, and you can’t take a step backward. The student loan debt itself will not drag you down when you’re out of law school - you can always defer, switch to a slower payment plan, get repayment assistance, etc. But once you’re used to a big firm salary, it will be really difficult to switch to the crap pay that you get in the nonprofit world. PLUS, and this is almost more crucial, with the public interest/nonprofit field being as competitive as it is, most nonprofits will not even look at a resume from someone from the corporate or big firm world. They want demonstrated dedication to their field, kind of a “true believer” mentality. They will not be sympathetic to your poverty and law school debts - the people they serve are way poorer anyway, and they are too! If you come from the corporate/big firm world, it’s very difficult to break into the nonprofit sector. And, by the way, I noticed that you said that you’d be willing to do “whatever” kind of job in the public sector - ACLU instead of PETA, or whatever. While I understand this attitude, and shared it myself, again the “true believer” types that work in these nonprofits won’t dig this attitude. They want you 100% dedicated to whatever cause their nonprofit is supporting - and this dedication better be supported by summer jobs, volunteer work, extracurriculars, etc., while in law school if not before. Sucks, I know, but there it is.

One more piece of financial advice - and this was the best piece of advice that I got before starting law school, which I totally ignored, to my profound regret: with the amount of loans, credit card offers, etc. that you will get as a law student, it is possible to “live like a lawyer” when you are still a law student. Unfortunately, this will mean that you will have to “live like a law student” once you are a lawyer. At least, I did, and so I am. So if you’re going to take out student loans, take out the minimum you can live on, and don’t go into debt on credit cards if you can help it. I’ve been practicing for 5 years now and I still have major credit card debt.

-whew- that was quite a long response, wasn’t it? I’ll be happy to elaborate or answer any other questions to the best of my ability since, as I said, I went through this myself pretty recently. Anyway, good luck to you, and keep us updated!

8

Assume for a moment that ending up at a huge firm doing M&As is a worse scenario than having 150k in debt and no job. It seems to me that I’m faced with a simple question: which scenario am I more afraid of–enjoying public interest law but not being able to find my dream job because I went to a lesser school, or disliking law altogether and being stuck?

Objectively, the second scenario is much worse. If the first one happens, I’ll still be able to find something reasonable fulfilling.

But my dream isn’t to work at a public defenders office, however noble that might be. My dreams are bigger than that. When it comes to your life’s dreams, you’ve gotta give it everything you’ve got, right? (Even if it’s unreasonable?) If I hedge my bets, it might hold me back just enough to make me fail.

To be prudent, or optimistic?

9

IANAL, just a lowly 2L. but I think a huge amount of weight is given to your legal education when you’re just starting out. The big firms and top public jobs rarely recruit from below the top tier (top 100). So if you’re aiming to do well and land a top job go to the best school you can get into. Second, there is no reason you have to choose one career path. If you do very well and land a job at a big firm you can be making six figures right out of school, which will go a long way towards repaying your loans. After a few years paying your dues (literary and figuratively) you can move into the public sector.

One caveat though, specialization is important in your law career. It’s not uncommon to see people switch from private to public or vice versa, but it isn’t often someone who had spent 10 years behind closed doors handling M&A’s decides to become a court room litigator. So, deciding what field of law you are interested in is more important than deciding where you’d like to practice it.

10

Forgive the Hijack, but I have a related law question. It might need its own thread, but I’ll start here.

Can anyone tell me about Arbitration? I have mulled over going back to school (Would be my 4th degree, what am I? A massochist?) for law to help “Professionalize” my natural talents of problem solving, empathy and communication skills and add to my MBA business experience. I also went through a nasty little business legal hassle a few years ago and often felt I missed my calling with legal contract studies. At the end I felt that my whole problem should have been handled differently, possibly through arbitration.

So now I’d like to explore this idea a bit further. Anyone want to give me the dope on arbitration as a profession?

-Tcat

11

Tomcat, alternative dispute resolution is an extremely hot field in law right now. Every law school I know of offers a few classes devoted specifically too it. You’d still have to take the standard courses (contracts, evidence, civil procedure, etc.), but you could study to become an arbitrator, mediator, or an attorney specializing in ADR.

Check out www.adr.org

12

Cool, thanks for the info. I’ll need to see what similar organizations they have on this side of the pond, but it does sound interesting.

-Tcat

13

You can also choose a middle ground and elect to work for the government. The first year you’re on a fellowship and you still make substantially more than a public interest lawyer. If you get re-hired, you used to get up to $6,000 for your federal loans on top of your salary (they cut it recently). At my agency I could be making very close to six figures within 3-4 years. Once you hit a certain grade, you hit the six-figure mark.

It’s not private firm money but you work a. lot. less. Says the federal lawyer.

I still say go the best school you can get into. You can always elect to go into public interest law from a higher-ranked school but you’ll retain the option to get into clerkships, fellowships and top firms. It is substantially more difficult to go from a lower-tier school to a top firm or a really prestigious clerkship. 75% of the kids in my program are from Tier 1 schools.

14

But I will amend my statement to note that I don’t have any private debt and no debt from undergrad. Just the max on the federal loans. It makes my salary totally workable.

15

Ah, but how easy is it to get a fedgov job for us non-Harvard bound?

16

Tier 1 doesn’t mean just Harvard and Yale. Generally people seem to define it by the US News and World Report’s Top 50 schools. I went to a Top 25. Most of the kids in my program went to schools from the 8-25 range. The remaining kids are from lower-ranked schools but they had great grades, are good networkers, got off their ass and applied…whatever.

And it is honestly not that hard. I only graduated cum laude and I got one of the Honors Fellowships. There are plenty of executive agencies, commissions etc. (SEC, US Nuclear Reg Commission, EPA, IRS, EEOC…they all have fellowships-so apply to all of them). Working for the Antitrust Division of the DOJ is hard, no doubt, but even there…the lawyer who did my interview was from UWisconsin or Minnesota or something. Good schools, but not Harvard.

The biggest pain for getting a federal job right after law school is that the track is limited to those that get into the Honors fellowships-as far as I have experienced. And to get into those fellowships you have to spend a lot of time writing applications. But so what? In my opinion it really beat the stupid firm lunch + 5 interviewers in a row torture. The only problem is that you’re on the govt. schedule so you find out either right before or right after you graduate-which can be kind of stressful.

17

Also, this is just my opinion, mind you but lawyers can be really, really discouraging to people who are about to go to law school. I can’t figure out for the life of me what it is-people who are like really bitter about their life and spew their bile on you and need to tell you about all the bad parts of it. And then there are those who apparently know lawyers who are unsuccessful blah-de-blah (and aren’t even lawyers themselves) and need to give you the whole spiel on how you might end up in the gutter scouting for Fagin’s gang.

So my MHO, as a recent law school graduate and newly minted bottom-feeder, is do some research but don’t go overboard trying to gather tons and tons of data or you might end up with panic attacks once you meet up with the wrong bitter people who warn you that you’ll be 150K in debt and potentially jobless. If you really believe in yourself-go for it. Go for the higher-ranked school. Work hard. It works out for most of us even though it seems endless and torturous and scary while you’re going through it (even worse before you’re there). There is a risk involved in getting up off your ass and doing anything. I don’t really think the question is “what if?” but “am I willing to believe in myself enough to take the risk?”

It’s not all primroses but it was the best investment I could have possibly made in myself and I’m incredibly happy that I pushed myself and went to one of the good schools I got into, taking on the debt that I wouldn’t have had at other schools.

Best of luck to you! :slight_smile:

18

Also, this is just my opinion, mind you but lawyers can be really, really discouraging to people who are about to go to law school. I can’t figure out for the life of me what it is-people who are like really bitter about their life and spew their bile on you and need to tell you about all the bad parts of it. And then there are those who apparently know lawyers who are unsuccessful blah-de-blah (and aren’t even lawyers themselves) and need to give you the whole spiel on how you might end up in the gutter scouting for Fagin’s gang.

So my MHO, as a recent law school graduate and newly minted bottom-feeder, is do some research but don’t go overboard trying to gather tons and tons of data or you might end up with panic attacks once you meet up with the wrong bitter people who warn you that you’ll be 150K in debt and potentially jobless. If you really believe in yourself-go for it. Go for the higher-ranked school. Work hard. It works out for most of us even though it seems endless and torturous and scary while you’re going through it (even worse before you’re there). There is a risk involved in getting up off your ass and doing anything. I don’t really think the question is “what if?” but “am I willing to believe in myself enough to take the risk?”

It’s not all primroses but it was the best investment I could have possibly made in myself and I’m incredibly happy that I pushed myself and went to one of the good schools I got into, taking on the debt that I wouldn’t have had at other schools.

Best of luck to you! :slight_smile: