Guess as the token non-Westerner I’ll take a shot. More positive. The Chinese have pulled hundreds of billions of people out of poverty and have provided investments and technical expertise in other countries where it’s been lacking and sorely needed.
The “human rights” claim is bunk. No one thinks of them as some sort of saint. But dopers, most of whom live in countries whose political machinations in the last decade and a half has led to destruction and untold misery for millions from the East Med to the Persian Gulf, really have no standing to call them out.
I don’t look at Russia in it’s current incarnation as a natural enemy. I think Russia is a declining power, is surrounded by historic competitors, has a vast amount of territory to defend, and is dealing with poor demographics.
I also feel we deal with Russia in a dishonorable fashion after the breakup of the USSR. We could have helped tremendously in modernizing that nation instead of exploiting the breakup.
We’ve been exploiting the Chinese populous with regards to labor while pretending to be virtuous domestically. China is building up it’s industrial base and technology while our industrial base is hollowing out. If China develops a strong AI first things will be very interesting.
An additional concern about China is that they remind me of a colonial era European power in that they are not going to let public opinion get in the way of strategic goals. In the competition between nations that may turn out to be advantageous. The one thing that China has that other totalitarian police states did not have is near technological parity combined with productivity parity. That’s why I feel that the US leadership has sort of betrayed the West by allowing the catch up.
Just my thoughts. I wonder if another Pacific war is inevitable.
I’m surprised that the party has hung on so long and demonstrated that a mixed-authoritarian political system can sustain so much robust economic growth.
I thought economic prosperity would lead to greater liberalism, but it seems like it’s just empowered corruption and authoritarianism.
10 years ago I was alarmed at China’s military expansionism. It’s gone further and faster than I expected, but in hindsight not as much as it could. They really are skilled at playing the long game and expanding in small drips and drabs that aren’t enough to provoke a response.
its the same i dont think theyre trustworthy but i wonder what would happen if china had a real recession would the people revolt if it lasted too long or would the state say see thats what happens and go back to a communist style economy and hand out piles of cash to keep the peasants happy …
My feelings haven’t really changed, they’re not nice as far as government and politics go, but in terms of concern I rank them way behind Russia and the USA in foreign impact or amount of evil perpetrated in the world.
The internal persecutions are terrible. So is stabbing children and driving trucks into civilian crowds, though, so I’m not exactly sympathetic to the Uyghur jihadists, either. Or the Russians who stoked the separatist fires early on, either.
I think if you’re going to have a considered view of modern China, you need to go back to late 1978 and the economic reforms introduced by Deng Xiaoping. They basically opened up China for business and established an authoritarian sort of capitalism with dual tracks of state-owned and private industry. The authoritarianism could be harsh if you opposed it – see Tiananmen Square – but had a genuine primary focus of improving the economy and moving hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. After Deng Xiaoping’s death in 1997, the focus seemed to shift a bit. China already had external interests, especially in Africa, but the focus on their external interests and being a regional and world power increased. However, Deng’s successors were still in charge and the economic reforms continued including increased privatisation, and external investment. Authoritarianism continued, and nationalism increased, but both took a back seat to economic growth.
This focus on economic growth rather than state authority diminished in the early 2000’s. Under Hu Jintao, China’s central government became more powerful and less reform minded. Some of the privatisation was reversed and China became more focussed on displays of power, including through sport, the military, foreign relations and external investment. This assertion of state power, both internally and externally, showed China was moving in a different harder direction than it had under Deng Xiaoping. Hu Jintao’s leadership ended in 2012 when he was succeeded by Xi Jinping, who’s been even more autocratic. Xi has consolidated power under what the government claims are anti-corruption reforms, and has taken a very harsh line on dissent. China has also greatly increased its programs for accumulating and projecting external power.
So back to the OP, my view on China hasn’t changed since 2009. By that point, it was evident that they were committed to an autocratic central government, to being the predominant power in Asia, and to having worldwide influence. China’s simply gone further down the road they were already on since the early 2000’s. As a country, it’s become more powerful, more centrally controlled, and less open to opposition or democratic reforms. But these changes aren’t due to some hardline pivot. They’re continuations of policies that started changing well before 2009.
My opinion of China was very negative ten years ago. They were persecuting Falun Gong, Tibetans, even the Uighurs. They had reneged on promises made to Hongkong. Their environmental record was abysmal; they were in violation of international agreements; and engaging in wide-spread industrial espionage and piracy. The Tiananmen Square Massacre was 30 years ago.
I may watch the video, but their recent behavior would have to be very bad indeed for my opinion to be even worse than it was ten years ago! Instead, I was hoping that some of their behavior might have improved a bit. They seem intent on becoming the century’s super-power, but that is understandable.
In contrast to some other major players, China’s behavior seems good! Russia is more blatantly evil than ever. The same for Saudi Arabia. I no longer have respect for Israel’s government. Turkey, India, Pakistan, Thailand — there’s discouraging news everywhere. Even countries like the U.K. are on a downward trajectory. And of course, the U.S. has warped (temporarily?) into a personification of evil.
Curious, because I’m not sure my opinion of China is accurately described as either positive or negative. I think I previously likely viewed them negatively, both WRT their human rights issues, and as a threat to Western interests. Now, I have developed a growing respect for their success - combined with my declining respect of so many aspects of American society and policy. 20 years ago, the US was poised to increase its position as the sole superpower - and hopefully influence a greener and more equitable planet. Instead, on countless fronts it pursued actions seemingly aimed at mortgaging its future.
Tough to be too critical of China’s environmental policies, internal discrimination and corruption, and expansionist foreign policy, when we in America are so lacking in the same respects despite our wealth and other advantages.
All empires eventually decline. The US will not disappear, but it will definitely continue to decline WRT China - and likely other - powers and markets.
I’m not really wanting to debate people’s answers (or I’d be talking about the ‘bunk’ claim about Chinese human rights abuses), but I’m curious. It’s unsurprising you list the US as more of a threat/concern, given your feelings about the country, but why Russia? I can’t for the life of me see how you could rank them higher on a concern meter than China at this point.
I won’t debate the second paragraph with you, as I don’t want to debate answers, but your second sentence there is…disappointing. It actually gives the CCP some measure of justification, which they don’t have.
Has China invaded and annexed any neighbours’ territory recently? Is China actively involved in any Middle East wars? Have Chinese agents poisoned anyone in a Western country recently? Have Chinese nuclear bombers landed in my back yard this year? Have the Chinese interfered in my local elections as well as some others of particular global significance?
I’d have to be a fool to not rate Russia higher than China as a concern.
Commentary is debate.
Nothing justifies reeducation camps. But it’s worth mentioning that the Uyghur aren’t exactly just an oppressed minority here.
Thanks for the answer. It’s always interesting to me to see how people assess threat and what metrics they use. And also how much they know about the overall subject when making their assessment.
Is it worth noting that? I don’t see how they AREN’T exactly an oppressed minority who the (Han) Chinese under the direction of the CCP are essentially trying to wipe out, culturally and even ethnically with forced marriages and colonization. I think it’s worth noting that the Uygars aren’t the only minority being oppressed fairly ruthlessly, or that this is tied to ethnicity, as there is tons of religious oppression as well.
I used to think of China’s government as evil but practical. They wanted power above all else but beyond that were genuinely interested in helping China become economically strong. They would only do evil to stay in power but let non political people alone.
The treatment of the Uighurs has changed my mind in that it seems so unnecessarily evil. Xi is a tyrant wannabe and not a pragmatist like the previous leaders
I agree in general that Russia is more of threat. It is unstable and not on a path to economic success. Their economic plan seems to be destroying other economies to make theirs look better.
But you forgot about Tibet and we have no idea of the extent of global espionage by the Chinese because they are not so clumsy about it as the Russians.
But they do seem to be the ones doing most of the bombings, and the stabbings…
which is why they’re in reeducation camps and the equally separatist-y Inner Mongols aren’t.
Yes, I’m aware there’s a religious element there. You could tell by how I used the word “jihadists”, it’s a subtle clue, I know.
How have I forgotten about Tibet? Did you miss the word “recently” in there?
I’m sure the Tibetans would disagree. But, hell, you are right…a few dozen Muslim extremists have in fact done bombings and stabbings, so that’s why millions are in concentration and re-education camps. Not sure why so many non-Muslims are ALSO in such camps, but I’m sure it has to do with bombings and stabbings in some way…
(This, of course, leaves aside the fact that many of the stabbings were from Han Chinese, but what the hell)
Here is what you wrote (for those who can’t scroll up):
You used the word(s) ‘Uyghur jihadists’ and said you don’t have much sympathy in the context of oppression. So, unless your ‘subtle clue’ was about Uyghur jihadists oppressing the good people of China, it’s a bit confusing how you are tying that together with massive oppression of other religions…or, hell, massive non-religious and non-ethnic oppression. I’m not sure what you thought you were saying wrt wider religious or non-religious oppression, but your ‘subtle clue’ really wasn’t either subtle or a clue.
Do you think the oppression or colonization of Tibet is something that was long in the past??? Seriously…do you not know what’s CURRENTLY going on in Tibet???
(This leaves aside all of the annexation by fiat of territory in the South China Sea, but I figure that doesn’t count with you for some reason. The the economic colonialism China is doing by, essentially, debt trap diplomacy used to acquire key pieces of other countries infrastructure and facilities)
China is much, much for of a threat to the world than Russia is. China’s ability to influence world events is only going to increase, and Russia’s is only going to decrease with their respective economies going in different directions.
China is quietly invading Africa, and there presence there is everywhere. 20 years ago they were completely absent from that continent.
China has support North Korea for decades and continue to do so. U.S. Pacific allies are increasing concerned with China’s designs on the region. Taiwan specifically is a target and I think they will be invaded within 15 years.
Seventy years ago China was the place where “starving children would love to have my beets.” At some points, India became the place where they wanted my beets. I was pretty young, but I learned a lesson from that. The lesson wasn’t that political bias moved the compassion of my nation to a new location. I wasn’t sophisticated enough to consider the popular political motives. It was clear to me that China had decided to feed their children. The entire problem of children hungry enough to actually want to eat beets was now happening in India. I wondered why the Indians has sent their beets to China, but wasn’t all that interested. I never have been all that interested in economics. Or beets, but that’s a personal issue.
