I’m wondering where 'dopers are with respect to their view of China. Has your view of China changed at all in the last decade (say, since 2010), and if so, how? I guess to flesh this OP out, what are your thoughts about the trade war? The protests in Hong Kong? The concentration camps in Xinjiang. Their environmental policies and practices? Their Belt and Road plans and implementation? Their policies in the East and South China Seas region?
Really, though, what I’m looking for is how 'dopers see China today as opposed to perhaps how you saw them 10 years ago, and whether your thinking has changed, and if so how…and if not, perhaps some detail as to your thoughts on the country. Feel free to digress on any or all subjects concerning China, Trump’s trade war or whatever, though I’d like to make the thread about China, not the US or EU or whatever.
(Just as a reference, this video is the one that sparked my thought on making this thread. It’s a rather long and, probably dry debate about China, the trade war, China’s economy, and the impact of all of this on China and what the Chinese leadership may or may not be thinking. You don’t have to, nor do I expect anyone too watch the video, but figured I’d link to it anyway)
My view on China hasn’t changed, I wouldn’t say. I’ve always been reticent about them as business partners, and felt they hadn’t moved at all, really, on human rights. Hong Kong and Xinjiang just confirm it.
I don’t have a view on Trump’s Trade War as I’m not in the US, except that it seems more about Trumps Mode of Business than anything to do with China.
I would say I am more negative, though I was never naive about what their government’s interests were. It’s been clear since the 1990s (if not sooner) that they would be an adversary to countries with democratic values. But 10 years ago, I didn’t know who Xi Jinping was, and I didn’t understand his designs on global power. Nor did I foresee rounding up millions of Uighurs and setting up a security state on steroids. What China’s doing should scare the piss out of everyone because just as America and England laid down a democratic template for other countries to follow (with results that vary of course), I see China as laying down a completely different kind of blueprint.
All of that said, I think that Trump’s foreign policy has been disastrous, and while casual observers might think it’s China’s economy that’s getting dented, the trade wars with China and everyone else, along with demands that allied partners pay double what they are now for their own security, is playing right into China’s hands. The Chinese play the long game, and the Trump presidency is making it an increasingly safe bet that China will emerge the undisputed global power, and that realization might happen much sooner than we anticipate.
It’s been 12 years since the melamine tainted pet food fiasco of 2007. Following that mess I stopped purchasing anything “made in China” if possible. My China boycott goes on today, although for certain items it’s impossible.
I would say worse, although I’m no expert… For a while it seemed like China was on a gentle slope in the direction of freedom, as it shifted from a state run economy to a more capitalist mode. With the installation of Xi Jinping, the direction seems to have reversed, with more central authority , and increase in censorship, suppression of dissent, the Xinjiang re-education camps, and bullying in the south China sea.
My thoughts on China has changed over the years. With that said I was part of the anti-Japanese movement who thought Japan was going to take over the world (during the 1980’s not the 1940’s). I was very adamant about buying american.
However I have found from a working class view that americans who can make a difference don’t honor that, and the ‘buy american’ is a sham to shame one into paying higher prices for lower quality goods by those in power to those without power. Sometimes to enrich those americans who buy from china to resell it, sometimes for inferior goods produced in the US of A. American does not make high quality any more, just living on a reputation and a false dream.
The long and short of it is I found that no one wanted to pay me a ‘american’ wage for my wares so I have no obligation to buy american or buy the BS that anyone should buy american while the american fat cats are buying chinese and telling us to buy there stuff at higher prices. I refuse to be duped into buying (stuff I need) when the price is high and selling (my labor) when the price is low. American economics have taught me otherwise, I need to buy low and sell high. So until I get my price I will not consider their price or product.
My take today is that China makes some of the worlds finest goods (iPhone anyone?), but also the cheapest crap. I place their quality of good on a scale from 1 to 10 everywhere from 1 to 10 (the US I place most goods from 3-6 though with a rare few cases and getting rarer of a 9 or 10), overall China is higher quality given a price point.
Assuming we’re talking about the Chinese government (the Chinese people and Chinese culture are fascinating and amazing!), then definitely worse. But I don’t begrudge them their trade strategies – they’re going to try and benefit their own economy, whatever that entails. We can and should fight them on it when we can get some sort of advantage, but I see that just as a big game of chess.
I see them worse because it’s becoming increasingly clear what a brutal and authoritarian regime they are, brutalizing and terrorizing their own people who dare step outside very narrow boundaries of speech and expression. I think that should be the focus of foreign policy (a more free China can only benefit humanity around the world) even more so than trade, and perhaps we should try and link incentives on the latter for improvements on the former.
No. It was pretty obvious where China was going 10 years ago, they’re on that same path. The only thing really knew is the current trade situation with the US and they’re reacting just as almost everyone expected.
In the coming months and years we may see something very different happening as a result of the Hong Kong protests. On that issue China is at the crossroads, let’s hope they choose the right direction.
Worse, but mostly because I really hadn’t given China much thought in years beginning with 2. Until just this year.
About that first sentence: like most westerners, my views of China a few decades back were strongly affected by the Chinese government’s crackdown on the Tiananmen Square protesters in 1989. But time moved on, other issues moved to the forefront, China’s internal issues for the most part stayed out of the news in the West, and after a while I really didn’t have much of anything current to base an opinion of China on. So that’s where I was ten years ago, or even one year ago.
But lately I’ve been hearing about the protests in Hong Kong (and the need for them), and the concentration camps in Xinjiang. So I’ve gone from hardly thinking about China at all, and having even less of an opinion about it, to realizing there’s some nasty shit going on over there.
China is developing but not at the acceptable rate for a first world country. It is a very large country where many areas are not quite up to standards that we would hope, so a lot of the country is still living under conditions of the past. The power structure is still trying to maintain a level of control over the populace that is unrealistic in the modern world. But this power structure is very entrenched and conservative. It will take time, probably another 20 years before living standards are up to first world status.
As for the demonstrations in Hong Kong. Hong Kong lived as a semi-autonomous territory of China while under British rule, they are now coming to grips with the fact that Hong Kong is now China. Perhaps the standards of Greater China will rise to meet those of HK or HK will experience a diaspora of talent and fall down to meet the conditions of Greater China, only time will tell.
The time for these demonstrations in Hong Kong was when the UK pulled out, that was their last chance, only the population was lulled by the putting of the final dates way into the future, some other generation’s problem. The younger generation is now realizing this, it is now their problem.
Hong Kong is China, and those who do not realize this are fucked. The only real change will come if the corporate money decides to pull the money and jobs away until real reforms are made.
I have always had a pretty consistently negative view of China as a nation for my whole life, and nothing over the past decade has changed my view of the country.
But I’ve interacted a whole lot more with many mainland Chinese *people *(due to a different social circle that I now live in) and I like most of them a great deal. I’ve learned a lot from them, found them refreshingly honest and blunt (albeit sometimes very narrow-minded or materialistic).
This is pretty much how I feel. The only reason I feel more negative about China now than I did ten years ago is that they’re farther down the path.
My current worry is a story I heard a couple of days ago. Apparently a lot of business people who deal with China are experiencing unexpected breakdowns in their dealings with Chinese firms. There’s a pattern of Chinese companies recently ripping off the non-Chinese companies they’re doing business with.
There’s always a danger of this happening but it hasn’t been an issue in China until recently. Companies know that they can often make a quick profit by cheating on a deal. But the price they pay is getting a reputation as a company that cheats on its deals. Most companies are smart enough to understand it’s smarter to look at the long term picture and collect smaller profits year after year rather than try to collect a one-time big profit.
But there’s an exception; when companies don’t expect for there to be a long time relationship in the future, they can decide to grab whatever they can now and not worry about the consequences. Chinese companies have been trustworthy in the past but now appear to be grabbing the short term gains. One explanation would be that the people running these companies are aware that there is going to be a major disruption in foreign trade in the near future.
My theory is that the Chinese government is planning a major diplomatic push within the next two years. Probably in the South China Sea. They’ve been moving people and military supplies into the area and laying the diplomatic groundwork. I think they’re planning on moving things to the next level and will state a policy of actively enforcing its claims in the area.
Whoa…I guess it depends on your definition of ‘recently’.
Actually, I heard a theory that the Chinese Communist Party is planning to do exactly what they said they would, i.e. they are planning to deal once and for all with Taiwan in the near future. Basically, the theory goes that the CCP thinks (with some justification), that if they do something horrific that the attention span of the West will basically have us forget about it within a fairly short time frame. As China wants the west to be happy with it for it’s anniversary, they want to get the bad stuff out of the way so we will happily be there for the big party in 2049.
Anyway, lots of good answers. Appreciate the input. It’s often hard to gauge where the board is on some things, as they are often overlooked or not really discussed because people are so focused on other things.
Chances are China would also want to do such things while Trump and/or a Bernie/Warren type is in power.
China wouldn’t want to mess around with a fairly conventional president, such as a Hillary, Biden or Obama. But someone like Trump is flighty, America-first, unstable and might decide not to intervene against China. And someone like Warren or Bernie might be so democratic-socialist that they don’t want to intervene in a war, either.
I came of age during Mao’s Cultural Revolution so my impression of China had been increasing for a while. Then came Tiananmen, and then Xi. I’d say I’m back in '73 now.
No. They are a more frightful great power competitor than the former USSR and many of our political and business leaders have made a deal with the devil for personal enrichment. It’s going to be good to be #2 in the world though. We’ve been complacent.
I have always been somewhat curious about the difference in how the general populace in the US reacted to the USSR vs. China. The USSR was cast as the enemy during the cold war, and those of us of a certain age see strong echos with Putin in charge. So, the image has been one of two powers scowling at each other.
Whereas, even though China was “Red China”, after the Nixon thaw there seemed to be more of a laissez faire fair embrace of China as “well, they are kinda moving in the right direction…” What with their embrace of their form of capitalism and importing of western cultural and commercial icons. They buy up all a bunch of our gov’t bonds, we use their factories, they send all their kids to our colleges, etc.
But for me, trying not to sound too simple minded, I’ve always been feeling like saying, “Uh, guys…GUYS! Have you really looked at what they’ve been up to? It’s not good.”
So, I don’t know about the last 10 years part, but I do think they will get far worse over the next 10 years.
I considered Taiwan as a possibility. But my gut feeling is the South China Sea. I feel China will be methodical and look to advance itself one step at a time. And the South China Sea is a smaller step because there’s no significant local population to take into account. And China has been emphasizing its claims in the South China Sea while it’s been keeping quiet about Taiwan.
If they are able to take the South China Sea and other countries let them get away with it, then I think they will start a new push against Taiwan using the momentum they gained.
