Thought I’d share this video from China Uncensored about how China attempts to undermine the west. It’s pretty interesting, though for me it’s stuff I’ve seen quite a bit of so not much new from my perspective. But it seems a lot of 'dopers don’t know that much about China or the CCP or what they are doing…or why they are doing it. The guy speaking to the host (Chris Chappell) is retired US Air Force General Robert Spalding.
Whats the synopsis for this 23 minute video? From what I can tell its just about how China is becoming interdependent in the global economy, which increases their influence.
I’m not sure if its relevant, but the other east asian nations that became wealthy all underwent political reform when they became wealthy. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan. Then again Singapore is fairly repressive.
Yup. In spite of all the screeching from the left over the past few years about Russia, I think China is actually much more likely to pose an existential threat to America and the free world.
The topic is important. @ OP - Please post a few bullet points or a paragraph of discussion. That might be very informative.
I watch a lot of YouTubes. Some have graphics, some music, some useful images. Some are fun. This one? None of the above.
Some provide useful news or information, but don’t exploit the power of images. My ear-to-brain speed is probably about average, but when I’m watching Rachel Maddow I turn her up to 1.5x normal speed. I love Rachel, but even at 1.5x speed she often takes a while to get to the point!
The video you link to is intolerably boring even at 2x speed. The opening minutes drone on with personal anecdotes. @ OP - If there’s one or two key minutes, post the times and I’ll click to them. But a 23-minute unusually boring video is not on my docket today. I might skim-read a transcript, if there is one.
Haven’t watched the video, but China’s Belt and Road program is concerning. They offer to build major infrastructure projects for underdeveloped countries with the cost to be paid back to China over time. When the host country is later unable to pay, China negotiates a deal that gives them a great deal of control over that asset. Example:
It wasn’t really supposed to be a debate. This isn’t even the regular show, it’s an interview. Sorry it’s not more exciting. I thought it was interesting so I figured I’d post it for anyone who wanted to watch it.
I will, however, post some thoughts on it. First off, here is their own summary from the description section of the video:
The video is basically Chris interviewing General Spalding about what this actually means. I guess the summary is that China uses a form of stealth asymmetric warfare against the US and the west (well, it was stealthy until fairly recently). It’s not warfare as the US is geared to, which involved military units attacks other countries infrastructure, instead it’s economically and politically oriented They essentially use our systems against us in a deliberate attack on us, not just economically but politically. They leverage their market to suck in western countries, then force them to give up intellectual property, patent information and a host of other things, on the one hand, while using state assets to do this against companies that don’t play along on the other. They basically are orchestrating this at their government (CCP) level, so it’s similar to what Japan did in the 70’s but more top down and focused. On the political front, they use our political system and media against us, to try and constantly undermine both slowly, over time.
Anyway, there is a lot of info here, and I’m not sure how well people can follow all of it. I have to admit, I don’t follow the financial parts very well. At one point they are talking about some sort of index fund that the federal employees are in that will change or has changed(?) such that a trillion US dollars will be going to China…and it will be going into Chinese companies that do things like build illegal islands in the South China Sea or into building Chinese warships. So, on the one hand you have the US Navy tasked with freedom of navigation exercises, and on the other you have US investment going to the companies who are building the things the US is opposing wrt freedom of navigation.
Like I said, I didn’t open this thread to really debate the subject, more to provide the link for anyone who is interested enough in this stuff to take the time (it’s around 22 minutes long) to play the video and absorb what they are saying. You might agree or disagree, but it gives some insights into some of the deeper things that are happening in the world right now. And not just from the US’s perspective. Australia has been going through a similar come to jesus moment wrt China and their infiltration of their political system (New Zealand as well). The EU is starting to wake up to some of this too. Then you have the whole belt and road aspect, and China’s debt trap lending practices that have allowed the Chinese to acquire critical infrastructure and port and basing rights all through the world while also building up Chinese companies and expanding their markets and work force around the world. Many countries and people around the world are waking up to what China is doing, both internally and externally.
It seems to me that a lot of 'dopers aren’t, for some odd reason. Maybe because China is boring or because it’s Trump who has taken them on (in, frankly, stupid ways) and so if Trump is doing it China must be ok…or something. I really don’t known But I often see posters touting China on the one hand while downplaying or handwaving some of the things they are doing on the other. We have had endless threads on US abuses, but I haven’t seen a lot about China’s suppression of them Muslim population (or Tibetan, or even Christian, oddly considering you’d think the conservative 'dopers would be up in arms about the last one at least). The few threads I’ve started on these things tend to die after a page or to of desultory comments and I don’t see a lot of them. But while the 'dope doesn’t seem that interested, I think that a lot of countries are starting to wake up to what China is doing and how they are doing it…and why they are doing it. And I think this interview goes into that at least at a thumbnail level, so it’s worth watching if you can slog through it. If not, it’s cool…I was just putting it out there if folks wanted to take a look. 
I think you don’t hear more people raging against it in part, because we seem to have fully shifted into a world where money is everything. So for all these measured complaints about undue influence etc, China has all the money. They own America’s debt and many other nations too.
The 5g thing is a good example. There’s a lot of talk about security risks, likely valid. But when it comes down to it they can undercut everyone else substantially on price. I don’t think they need do more, to be honest. Many nations are going to sign up regardless, because lower price!
It’s just Dollar stores on a larger scale. Everyone decries Chinese pollution problems, human rights violations, etc, etc. But we all still shop at the dollar store to save a few dollars when we can.
The Chinese know that it’s money we all worship. Look at all the airlines who caved to mapping Taiwan as Rep Of China, against Taiwan’s explicit wishes and years of policy and support. Out of fear of being disallowed to fly into China!
The west talk a lot of trash about ethics, rule of law and human rights, but money rules their worlds and in the end, everything else is malleable. I think a lot of people think the West has already sold its soul and the damage is already done.
It’s a good point. I do think the race for the all mighty dollar has in fact been used against us. There is actually a follow up podcast to this video I linked too (which is even longer and probably drier so I doubt anyone but me will get through it…it’s an hour, as opposed to the video which was only a bit over 20 mins, but it’s here if anyone wants to try). I bring this up because at one point in the discussion they are talking about cultural capture and change, and Robert Spalding says something along the lines that in our hubris, we thought that opening up to China would naturally change them to be more like us…i.e. they would morph into a liberal democracy like the rest of the west, as they would see all the advantages of this and would want to emulate it. Instead, what has actually happened (quite deliberately in many cases), is that China and, more darkly the CCP has actually been changing us to be more like them. Some of this is natural…the Chinese culture is just interesting and compelling, and they are a great people. But some of it, as mentioned, is deliberate. And they have used exactly what you are saying here to do it. Look at the example of Google or Apple in isolation. In both cases, to get into the China market, both companies not only had to give up valuable IP (which was stolen, reverse engineered and used in products that pushed those companies out of the local market and, in fact, are starting to be seen on the international market), but they have had to compromise their principals in a direct sort of way. Google’s ‘don’t be evil’ slogan has, in fact, been removed, and they are working on a search engine that will meet the CCP’s requirements for censorship. And by doing this, they STILL won’t really be able to compete in China, as Chinese search engines already exist in China, already meet the CCP’s requirements, and, frankly, are Chinese instead of foreign. So…they did all this, gave up all they did, and in the end they aren’t going to gain anything. Yet, they keep coming back for more. Apple is the same. And these are just two examples. And only companies…governments are and have done similar things, especially now with the belt and road loans.
And all Apple got out of the deal was slave labor! What suckers!
Thanks for the summary, XT. Maybe the problem is that I don’t multitask well. Some people would be able to do something unrelated with their hands and eyes while listening to a podcast, but I can’t. Moreover I am very impatient.
Without minimizing the threat from China, it might be interesting to compare their current programs with those of the U.S. a few decades ago. How many have read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man? The book, which describes the same sort of deliberate over-investment as Belt and Road, is controversial, but many “in the know” have said it is largely accurate. One difference between Chinese activities and the U.S.'s is that the latter were focused strongly on U.S. corporate profits rather than geopolitics. Nevertheless the U.S. government has exerted strong influence on foreign governments, including through coups and assassinations.
But two wrongs don’t make a right! The U.S. and the West need to counter growing Chinese influence. TPP was a useful first step for that.
I caught a glimpse of growing Chinese economic power just last week here in rural Thailand! Our VISA/ATM card had stopped working so we went to the bank for a replacement. We learned that they now offer UnionPay, but not Visa. Have you guys even heard of UnionPay, the Chinese rival to Visa? (The bank was strongly touting UnionPay but when pressed offered us a MasterCard alternative.)
That’s the thing, Nike’s are made in Asian factories by children working 12hr days, six days a week, in unair conditioned tropical heat. When they protest for better conditions the government send police to quell them. iPhones are made in factories where people live on site in barracks, work long hours, six days a week. When suicide became a problem they put up nets!
Yet most anywhere in the West everyone is preening with pride about their expensive Nike’s and their new iPhone. And it’s been that way uninterrupted over a decade since these conditions first came to light.
The Chinese def have the West’s number, I’d say. But it’s no better in China, where children’s vaccines are compromised so someone can skim profit. Same with building schools, big storm, many schools fall down, kill many children and reveal voids where there should be supports because builders were skimming money. Buildings fall down because they’re twice high as they were engineered for, to make more money!
I think most people can sense it’s kinda the same game just a different style.
Well, it would probably make for an interesting debate, and obviously MMV, but to me this is like comparing the British Empire to, say, Nazi Germany or the Stalinist USSR (or, ironically perhaps, Maoist China ;)). Sure, there is some equivalence there, and sure, all of them did bad stuff…but it’s not really ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’ so much as while all did wrong stuff, the wrong stuff they did wasn’t really on the same level.
Anyway, when I post videos in here it’s really just to share them with my fellow 'dopers and, if they want to discuss the video itself I’m all for doing that, but not really as a debate per se. I do think this topic is worthy of a debate, and I think there is debate material for comparing and contrasting the US (even the US several decades ago) or the West (same) with what China is doing today to see if there are parallels or explore the similarities and differences, but I’m going to leave those for another thread. I’m glad that the topic spurred a few 'dopers to even check it out, even if they didn’t watch the video or maybe finish it. As for the summary, no worries…my pleasure, though honestly I probably didn’t do it justice with my drive by between meetings post there.
A good treatment on the subject is Freakonomics podcast, Did China Eat America’s Jobs? They conclude that the answer is yes but not for the apparent reasons.
I hope it isn’t too much of a hijack to mention that China is using high-tech to monitor and mistreat its own citizens. That article mentions just one of many examples.
I think there are two problems with this “invasion”.
First, China isn’t forcing anyone to let them in. They are offering deals people can’t refuse, but the choice is up to the recipient. It is like driving a car. In a completely rational world, such dangerous stuff would require far greater care-but since we “choose” to drive we accept more risk. Before people point out we don’t in fact have a choice, I agree, just like driving. I can’t get to the grocery store without driving, but it is still a choice in my mind.
Second, the West did it first. And with more violence. We just don’t like the competition. Is China bad for it’s citizens? Well yes. But compared to China 50 years ago, things have improved a lot.
And I will point out that neither the US nor Europe are banana republics nor are they China circa 1840. China is going to reach parity with the west, but it isn’t going to dominate the world like the US did post WWII. Their economy will exceed the US, but nothing like how the US has exceeded every other economy in the world over the last 50 years.
China was the #1 threat to the West 20 years ago when I started in the Defence sector and nothing has changed since. They are out to steal anything and everything. If you have something they might want, you are a target. If you compete with China you are a target. If you compete - even indirectly - with a Chinese company, you are a target.
I am sure that is true. They are followed closely by Russia, then various eastern and western countries (Japan, Korea, Taiwan, France, etc.) who regularly seek out restricted information, or information that should be restricted if one is protecting economic capability, from other countries.
The US claims that they don’t spy for economic/business reasons. I take that with a grain of salt. After all, the US deploys government and education observers all over the world to learn what they can.
But certainly I believe everyone agrees that China is very active in obtaining information for their country no matter what means are used.
I don’t know about the present day but they certainly did even in the recent past
This podcast has a transcript. I’m not sure why you write “yes but not for the apparent reasons.” Low-skilled manufacturing jobs moved to China. What am I missing?
I was bemused by this excerpt:
Trump opposed TPP becuase he thought it was designed to help China? :smack: Truth is stranger than fiction with this incomprehensibly stupid President we ended up with. :eek:
No, there isn’t “some” eqivalence there, there’s a metric fuckton of equivalence. Other than outright extermination camps, what, exactly, did those groups do that the British Empire didn’t, up to and including forced labour, concentration camps, scorched earth and outright massacres?