Dopers in Germany - can I pick your brains?

In My Humble Opinion
1

Mr. Butrscotch is applying for a job in Kaiserslautern. Never having lived in that part of the world, we really have no idea what to expect. Just by way of background, he’d be a civilian contractor for the U.S. military, with about the equivalent rank of lieutenant colonel or colonel. With access to military facilities (commissary, exchange, healthcare, ec.). We lived on the economy in Japan a few years ago, but obviously it’s very different on that side of the world.

So a few questions:

  1. What’s housing like? Expensive? Cheap? Plentiful? Scarce? What are typical costs of getting into housing?

  2. What are some of the things someone used to living in the U.S. would find strangely expensive (other than, obviously, gasoline)? What are some things that would be strangely cheap?

  3. How easy/difficult is it to take pets with you?

  4. How easy/difficult is it to take your American car with you?

  5. Is it a fun place to live? What are some of the must-see spots? Must-do activities?

  6. How comfortable is the atmosphere for Americans there right now?

  7. Anything else you can think of we should know before getting any deeper into this?

2

Well, first of all, here’s the Homepage of Kaiserslautern. Apparently it’s the “American city within Germany”.

  1. Housing

In Germany, housing is usually rather expensive.
I found a website, though, that says Kaiserslautern is among the cities with the lowest rent prices (4,10 Euro for older apartments / 6,15 Euro for new apartments; “cold” per square meter). The prices are either given “cold” i.e. without costs for heating or “warm”.

To that you’ll have to add costs for amenities (like janitor, trash, fees for this, fees for that) and the cost for electricity.

Usually, you have to give a deposit when you sign a rental contract that amounts to 1 1/2 to 3 times the monthly rent.

  1. Strangely cheap items

I think prices are about the same here and in the US. If you want to use “genuine” US (food) products you’ll probably have to pay a bit more, but they should be available here. (I’m thinking of PAM for example that you can only get in special stores)

Mobile phone prices are cheaper, though. When I told somebody hawking contracts in a Florida mall what I was paying he almost wept and disappeared immediately. You don’t have “minutes” and you just pay for what calls you make.

  1. Pets

This site gives information about what you need.

  1. Car

I didn’t find anything on that, it’s probably rather difficult and expensive, as insurance and taxes are set by the size of the car, and American cars tend to be large. Also very difficult: Finding a parking space in German cities.

  1. Activities

Kaiserslautern looks like a good place to start out as you can pretty much travel all over the place.

Maybe you should give us a little rundown on what you enjoy doing, there’s lots of activities that I could recommend…

Of course, there’s always the classics:
The Black Forest
Rothenburg ob der Tauber
Heidelberg
Munich and the Oktoberfest
Garmisch-Partenkirchen and the Castles

  1. Atmosphere

Though there was some anti-American sentiment, in my opinion it centered around the politics of GWB and not on American people abroad. So I hope you should find German people as accomodating as ever (in general people here are not as polite as Americans, it’s considered “superficial”, but they do that to everyone :slight_smile: )

  1. Do you speak any German? Though many people here have a sufficient knowledge of the English language it probably would be good to have at least a basic level of understanding…

That’s what I can think of off the top of my head. If you want to have something clarified or found out in greater detail, just ask away…

3

Hi, I haven’t lived there for about 4 years, but I’ll answer what I can and then someone else will chime in.

  1. I thought housing was expensive. It will be cheaper than Japan ;), but it also kind of depends on where you are coming from and where you are going to. I lived in nice areas near Frankfurt and Wiesbaden, which I’d guess are more expensive than Kaiserslautern, which seems sort of the German boondocks, to tell the truth. My place was a fully furnished house, including some utilities, for almost $2500/month. Since you’re military you’ll probably take your household goods. German housing is usually threadbare, meaning not even the kitchen sink or light fixtures are included.

  2. Beer and pork are cheap. Some foods are a little expensive. Clothes are slightly expensive and probably not the style that you’re used to.

  3. What kind of pets? We had American friends who brought a dog, and it didn’t seem to be a problem. Dogs are very accepted in Germany, you can take them in restaurants, but they need to be very well behaved. I think you can get arrested or at least a fine if your dog barks all night.

  4. Same friends brought a car. There was some bureaucracy and wait, but it came through in a few weeks. I think that this is easier if you’re attached to the military.

  5. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Germans like to go out and take walks. Everything, it seems, is closed on Sunday (most all shopping, etc). Trier is nearby to Kaiserslautern, IIRC, and you’re not too far from France, and the Low Countries. Since I love Belgian Ales I would spend many weekends touring the Abbeys and sampling ale, but that’s just me. In the larger cities there is usually great art (Amsterdam and Paris, for example), interesting architecture and history. Kaiserslautern may not be the hotspot on the disco circuit, though.

  6. Don’t know. Probably not great but it’s easier to blend in Germany than Japan or Kuwait.

  7. Learn as much language as you can. Don’t stick to the base. Meet locals, tour the countryside.

4

Hi,

I am currently living in the U.K. but because I spent all my childhood in Germany I will try to answer some of your questions.

  1. There is plenty of houses in and around Kaiserslautern available. For a 3 bed-room house you will get something decent in the 200-250k € range. You might check out www.immopool.com. A lot of homes in the Kaiserlautern advertised and the site is available in English as well.

  2. IMHO food is quite a lot cheaper than in the U.S. Cloth especially Nike and other American brands are a lot more expensive in Germany.

  3. Sorry, don’t know anything about that.

  4. I haven’t got a clue about this one either.

  5. I have never been to Kaiserlautern in my life, but I think it is sourrounded by a hilly landscape and very close to the Rhine. The area is also famous for its vine yards.

  6. As people in Germany only disagree with Bush’s politics there is no problem for Americans living in Germany.

  7. I can higly recommend you to do some search on the internet. There should be pleny pages about Kaiserlautern.

5

Only been in Germany for a few months, working in Dusseldorf for a German company but here are a few comments…

  1. What’s housing like? Expensive? Cheap? Plentiful? Scarce? What are typical costs of getting into housing?

Despite a struggling economy we had difficulty finding accomodation in Dusseldorf, Germany when we moved there earlier this year. We ended paying over our budget and locking into a long lease in order to get something we were happy with. Also note that in our area at least, unfurnished really means that – most unfurnished properties we saw had no kitchen units of any kind and some had no bathrooms installed! However, I am sure that the US services will provide you with a lot of assistance in this respect. Also note that deposit and agency fees are high. We paid 3 month’s and 2 month’s respectively – that’s a lot of cash in one go.

  1. What are some of the things someone used to living in the U.S. would find strangely expensive (other than, obviously, gasoline)? What are some things that would be strangely cheap?

It’s been while since I did shopping in the US, but we have moved from Japan and basically everything is a lot cheaper than there. Some things that are seriously cheap in our experience are groceries and alcohol (we drink a bit of wine and that, as well as beer, is dirt cheap). Internet access is expensive ISP costs $25-35 per month, ASDL line another $50-60, for unlimited access.

  1. How easy/difficult is it to take pets with you?

No experience here, I’m afraid, but check with prospective landlords as attitude seemed to vary when we said we may want pets. Perhaps check restrictions on returning home with your pets too, US quarantine may be strict. I understand it is now possible to acquire a ‘pet passport,’ which is valid for quite a number of countries worldwide, with which your pets can bypass or shorten quarantine.

  1. How easy/difficult is it to take your American car with you?

Maybe the military would help but I would say difficult. Sell it and buy one here. Europeans are bureaucrat-meisters - I considered importing my own car but after some investigation, the extent of tests and paperwork required (all in German) not to mention the shipping and certificate costs made it a non-starter – and that was from one EU country to another. On the other hand, German cars are cheap and I recently went looking for a nearly-new car from BMW, AUDI and Mercedes and couldn’t believe how much there was to choose from and deals to be had.

  1. Is it a fun place to live? What are some of the must-see spots? Must-do activities?

We haven’t travelled much in Germany yet but so far in Dusseldorf we are very happy indeed. There is plenty to do here with a real cosmopolitan atmosphere – very European culture. It’s also a great opportunity to travel around Europe being so centrally based – Paris, Geneva, Vienna, Prague, Rome, London, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Barcelona are all within short flights or reasonable road-trips, not to mention the extensive ski resorts of the Alps, French wine regions, the Mediterranean… I could go on but suffice it to say Europe, as North America, has an awful lot to offer and Germany is bang in the middle.
The Germans (at least where we are) seem to be pretty sporty people and Sundays in particular see a mass of healthy looking people running, biking, rollerblading or playing team sports in the parks along the banks of the Rhein – you can help but feel fitter just watching them! Speaking of Sundays, everything closes (and early on Saturdays too), so indulge your consumer instincts during the week.
Oh, and the nightlife rocks!

  1. How comfortable is the atmosphere for Americans there right now?

The Germans are generally educated and respectful people. If you are referring to differences/tensions over the recent Gulf war I think there is nothing to be worried about. I am sure at military establishments security may be higher than normal, as anywhere else in the world, but otherwise there is no hint of resentment towards Americans or British. Indeed, in my experience the Germans are acutley aware of their history and go out of their way to be pacifist and libertarian by nature.

  1. Anything else you can think of we should know before getting any deeper into this?

I’m sure that the US military will provide a great deal of help on the logistics of your move. However if there are any other questions that you’d like to ask relative newbies, please feel free to drop an email and we’ll do our best to help.

Dan & Joanne

6

also you could try expatica.com

7

Thanks for all the helpful input! We’ve been doing some online research – those are good websites, Einmon – and talking to a coworker who had this job just a few years ago, so hopefully if the job comes through we’ll at least have some idea of what we’re getting into. And it’s truly impossible to have the same sticker shock as we got in Japan, I think!

But honestly, places with NO KITCHENS or BATHROOMS? Please tell me this is on houses you buy, not rent – surely they can’t expect renters to have to do buildouts of their own bathrooms??? (Although everything we hear about Kaiserslautern suggests that with so many Americans there, the American custom of appliances included prevails, at least in the local area.)

Language lessons are also definitely on the horizon if the job comes through! We’re not ones to hole up on base and hang out with only Americans doing American things, but would prefer to get out and about and see what we can while we’re wherever we are. So it sounds like it could be a LOT of fun!

8

In Dusseldorf we have a lovely apartment with brand new facilities, including full kitchen and bathrooms. However, this was the exception rather than the rule, and we paid up for it. We saw quite a number of unfurnished apartments and only a few had kitchens. Most ‘kitchens’ were literally empty rooms with gas and water pipes awaiting your sink, appliances and cupboards(apparently it is customary in this area for people to take their complete kitchens when they move, even when renting). Most of the landlords said that they would install a kitchen for us, but with an appropriate addition to the rental cost. Of course, we would have to wait for the units to be ordered and fitted which could have taken weeks…
It may be the case in Kaiserslautern, in significant ex-pat areas, that you will find rental accomodation that is fully equipped but check first when searching for somewhere to live.
Another point on renting, most listed rental prices will state monthly rental and utilities as separate figures (e.g. Eur 1,000 plus 200 per month). However, we were surprised to find that the ‘utilities’ payment did not necessarily include things like water and electricity, which can be expensive in Germany, so check what’s included in your quote.

9

I guess you’ll have to do some shopping around - usually it’s good to go for an apartment that’s been newly renovated. When I was looking for apartments most of them included a kitchen (if somewhat threadbare), but all of them had bathrooms installed.

You might also want to look for an apartment where the previous owner has had a kitchen installed and pay him a deposit, which you’ll then get back in turn from the people that rent the place after you move out.

I’d think you’ll have a selection of apartments in Kaiserslautern as usually low rent prices indicate that there’s many places around. (For comparison: I live in Munich, where the rent prices can be up to 16 € per square meter and there’s NO free space…people pay exorbitant sums for measly apartments)

If there’s at least a couple of places to choose from, you might be able to rent the apartment / house privately and save at least the agency fee.

If you need more advice or help you can also always email me, btw!

10

Jealous jealous jealous!!! I lived as a civilian on the Canadian Base in Lahr, which is now, very unfortunately, closed down permanently. I was only 9-12 when I was there, back in 1990 to 1993, which is young enough to not have understood the wonderful opportunity I had, but still old enough for me to remember it now (at the age of 22) and hopefully forever.

If the American base is anything like the Canadian ones (we only went to Kaiserslautern once or twice to shop), then see if you can arrange to have a sponsor over there - someone who might be able to find a home for you, based on basic family info (x kids, y dogs, etc). IIRC this was something arranged among the teachers who worked for the DND (all civilians), but they obtained information from the DND itself to keep things running smoothly. We even sponsored a family while we were there - and my mom and the woman are still close friends. Perhaps the potential job has some sort of similar system to help show the newbies the ropes.

If you have kids (and even if you don’t, but this is my kid-point-of-view) insist on dragging them to anything and everything worth seeing, even against their wills, and take PICTURES!!! I wish I had more pictures of my school and classmates, and classtrips and family trips. Document everything - label your pictures well, because it does get harder and harder to remember things over time :frowning:

Learn the language. This in one of the only true regrets I have in life - I suppose I can blame it on not knowing what I had the chance to do - and I almost daily wish I knew the German word for somethingorother. For us, as French Canadians, it was REALLY easy to just say “Sprechen zie English öder franzeusiche?” (forgive the spelling/grammar - it was enough at the time) and there was almost always someone who would be able to say yes to speaking english or french, especially because Lahr is literally a 10 minute drive from the french Alsace region.

You are going to be in a prime location to travel - a lot of europe can be seen on the weekends from such a central place as where you will be. TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT!!! I have great memories of my travels, and only wish we could have stayed in Europe longer, but alas! the DND only hired teachers for 3 years at a time without a full reapplication, and the base closed down the year after our repat anyways. Dammit, I wish the Base were still open - I’d have been looking for civilian jobs there for years, if there was any possibility of me going back.

:wiping tears from eyes:

Germany will become your home, as much as any other place can ever be. It’s a beautiful country, with beautiful people, and worth every moment you’re there. I miss it dearly, and definitely plan on returning one day, if only for a time.

Good luck.

-mnemosyne

11

butrscotch does have kids, but we’re 27 and 19. :smiley:

12

I’ve been there, but it was in, oh, 1973, so I can’t really add much other than that it’s called “K-town” by the American troops.

Oh, yeah…this link might help:
Living in Germany–Kaiserslautern

13

Well, mnemosyne, sounds like you really, really loved it. We’re still at the applying-for-the-job stage, no guarantees it’ll come through, but it sure sounds more and more like something we’d all love! I guess I’ll have to learn German commands for the dogs, too, just in case – don’t want them being too confused. :smiley:

This has all been really helpful advice. All the links are great, too. It definitely will help when and if the time comes that this all actually happens! (Anyone want to buy a house ten minutes from the French Quarter? :D)