Obviously, this topic belongs in the Pit.
Think about these two. They seriously avoided any danger this country may have brought them YET they cashed in on ALL the good stuff our country can deliver. Cheney, instead of ending up as one of 53,000 names on a wall, decided to further his career and earned HUGE amounts of money by becoming CEO of one of the most powerful multi-national corporations. George “Dubya” Bush by valiantly defending his country from Vietcong infilitration in Texas, rose to the Presidency of the United States. These 2 gentlemen are not exactly the Nathan Hale type are they?
Also, Dubya Bush being the “educationable” President must present a wonderful role model for today’s students. Hey why speak proper grammar or learn science? The President is lacking in both these areas so why should any ordinary student learn this stuff? Looking at Bush and Cheney, a kid could say “hey I’ll just ‘fuck off’ any responsibility and learning and I can still be President”. The US Educational system is in bad enough shape as is. Do you think that with Doofus Dubya in charge for 4 more years, our stdents are going to become intellectual giants? Also, our teachers have it tough enough as is. With “Dubya” as a role model, things won’t be getting any easier.
In the words of Colonel Jessup “All you did was weaken a country today”.
And this couldn’t go into one of the other threads? We needed yet another Pit thread about Bush winning?
I dislike Bush and his policies, but I’m getting sick of all this whining…
George W. Bush is an inspiration to lackluster C-students everywhere.
“I don’t need to study, I don’t need to work hard, I don’t even need to be attractive. As long as I’ve got the right connections from my family and my friends, I’m golden.”
I honestly don’t understand why people buy into the impression that Bush is a “stronger military leader” when Kerry had actually experience as a military leader. But then I heard someone argue that Bush is the stronger leader because he’s the president. Huh?
I’m suddenly reminded of Chris Rock’s first HBO comedy special. With a slight twist, it fits here perfectly.
“Study hard or you won’t be anything.”
“I can be President!”
Something else to ponder. The conservative types have been saying for decades how poorly Vietnam Veterans were treated on their return to the United States - especially those “awful hippies” throwing garbage at them. Well it seems as if good old conservative Middle America has re-elected the draft-dodging duo. The American people had 3 chances to elect a Vietnam Vet to the White House (John McCain - Republican / Al Gore - Democrat - in the 2000 election and John Kerry in the 2004 election). (After 4 years, I’m still wondering how “Dubya” defeated McCain in the 2000 election primary. Guess McCain didn’t know the “right people”.)
What will happen if the draft starts up again? (and we’re fooling ourselves if we think it will not be restarted). Our youth can look at how the top 2 leaders of this country made their personal choices and no doubt will start wondering how they can shirk their responsibility. And I would not blame them one bit for seeking all avenues of deferment.
And again, I have to point this out.
The American public had two chances in the 1990’s to elect decorated World War II veterans, one of them permanently disabled from his war wounds. I met Bob Dole once, and had to shake his left hand.
They voted instead for a man who avoided the draft in the Vietnam era.
So I have to ask, wolf_meister, how you voted, or would have voted, in these elections. Sauce for the gander and all that.
Mr. Moto, there is a big difference. Clinton didn’t believe in the war, protested that war and took advantage of one of the highest academic honors awarded for achievement – a Rhodes Scholarshp. He had good reasons for not being part of the war in Vietnam. And he was not given special treatment. What he got, he earned.
Bush, however, was a rabid supporter of the war in Vietnam. But when it was likely that he might be drafted, he was able to use his father’s position to get his name at the top of the list to get into the National Guard. (Keep in mind that when someone jumps to the top of the list, there is always one person who would have gotten into the Guard who did not.) So someone else went to Vietnam instead of Bush if you follow the logic far enough – someone without as much money and political clout. That doesn’t sound very democratic. I just hope that person “supported” the war as much as Bush did.
I admire people who have the courage to refuse or avoid the draft. I think it’s great when people can be Stateside instead of in a war overseas. I resent several things about Bush’s Guard duty: 1) the unfair use of political power to get into the Guard 2) hypocrisy in not supporting the cause he believed in 3) his being held to a different standard once he was in the Guard.
If patriotism is loving your country and doing what you think is best for it, then Bush was very unpatriotic. I don’t see that Clinton’s actions were unpatriotic in any way. What he did was not only legal, but actually encouraged by the Founding Fathers.
Good point Mr Moto
Actually, I voted for Clinton both times (1992 and 1996). Though I seriously considered voting for Robert Dole in 1996. (I voted for him in the 1996 primary - and I’m a Democrat.)
I will admit Clinton did not want to go to Vietnam (even if he will not admit that). I’d also state that Clinton had some serious character issues particularly in his second term.
But at least Clinton has 2 charcterisitics which make him a worthy (if somewhat flawed) role model. He is highly intelligent (Rhodes Scholar).
Also, he literally worked his way up from nothing (poverty-stricken, abusive childhood) and became President of the United States. In fact it is amazing to learn how many US Presidents had humble beginnings (Reagan, Ford, Eisenhower, Truman, etc). Had Bob Dole become President in 1996, he too would have been another member of the “humble beginnings” club.
So, let’s see about “Dubya’s” qualifications.
Military service - Texas National Guard (durng Vietnam War)
Intelligence - You’ve got to be joking.
Humble Beginnings - Don’t make me laugh.
Character - a something less than perfect young adulthood
Cheney seems somewhat intelligent but his personality (at best) is abrasive. Hey didn’t he tell someone in the Senate to “go f**k yourself” ? Cheney appears to have a “here’s looking down at you” attitude which is probably necessary if you are clawing your way up the corporate ladder but NOT if you are hoping to develop a likable public personality.
I am very surprised that these 2 people, so lacking in a great many abilities, have been able to get themselves voted into office for 2 full terms as President and Vice President.
Speaking personally, I realize my own limitations. I am 5’3", middle-aged and have multiple sclerosis. (still ambulatory and I work full time). Because of this, I realize that the odds of my playing basketball for the Boston Celtics are extremely remote and so I do not beat down their door asking for a try-out. Therefore, I wish people like “Dubya” and Cheney would NOT run for office and stand aside for more-qualified people to run. Although the Boston Celtics will never hire me, it seems you can always bullshit your way into public office.
The Dems did not attack Dole’s war record. The Reps should be ashamed of themselves for failing to accord John Kerry’s equally fine service the same respect.
I think the “New Topic” button should be disabled for a few days…
I voted for Kerry.
GWB received 59,117,523 votes.
John Kerry received 55,557,584 votes.
59,117,523 > 55,557,584
The symbol > means greater than.
It also means Kerry lost.
Get over it.
I have.
Were you asleep during the 1996 elections? Then there was the Oct.12 1992 peice in TNR by Sid Blumenthal, trying to sully GHWB’s record in WW2.
Oh my gawd!
ONE WHOLE ARTICLE!
Gasp!
…Well, that certainly puts all those “Swift Boat” commercials into persepective. Not to mention that Sinclair TV special. And the right-wing talk-radio Fox news insta-pundit smear jobs.
Was he? This is something I’m really curious about…I’m not just trying to be rhetorical. I know I heard a statement from him saying that he supported the war at first, then came to oppose it when he realized we couldn’t win. But do you have evidence that he was a “rabid supporter”, especially around the time he was up for draft?
See awolbush.com for his “service” record.
Bush was a supporter of the Vietnam war EXCEPT for the part where he might have had to go. Bush supported the war for everyone else. He got daddy to use political pressure to get him in the Texas Air Natl Guard by direct appointment, never having to go to OCS or ROTC like everyone else. Then he used pressure to get transferred to the Alabama Natl Guard so he could work on a Senate campaign, in support of a war hawk who was running for re-election. He had a record of not showing up for drills. The performance evaluation records that were not “lost” have an awful lot of “not observed” all over them, both in Texas and in Alabama.
Gotcha. I can honestly see why this would trouble you.
Considering, though, that Bill Clinton avoided the draft in part by using his connections with Senator Fulbright, I wonder why your outrage isn’t cast in his direction also.
Mr Moto
I’ve seen your postings before and I know you are rather fair-minded. Just wondering if you have a cite for Bill Clinton using Senator Fullbright to avoid the draft. If not, that’s okay. I do not think you’d just contrive that.
Even though I’m a Yankee liberal, I’ll be non-partisan and give 2 more examples.
Howard Dean - Democrat (remember him?) had a draft deferment because of a back problem. Yet, he still managed to ski in Colorado even after getting the medical deferment.
Kind of reminds me of Jack Kemp - Republican who also had a medical deferment from military service yet still managed to play professional football with the Bufalo Bills.
Granted, I understand that some medical deferments can exempt a person from serving in the military, even though that person can still be quite ambulatory. But don’t these 2 instances seem like a slap in the face to those who did serve? To make a vaguely valid analogy, when I was growing up, my parents would say “If you were too sick to go to school then you are too sick to go outside and play.”
Basically, if people can still ski and play football with their “medical deferments” shouldn’t there at least have been a provision in the Selective Service laws that still required some kind of service to your country? Well, too late to change those laws.
If the draft does get reinstated (and I think it will), it would be wise to think about these 2 people and determine if medical deferments do not allow people to “get away” scot free from any service to their country.
Then there’s Rush Limbaugh with his pilinoidal cyst …
That’s what I’m looking for documentation for, though. Do you have any statements by Bush at the time supporting the Vietnam War?
No, sorry but I don’t. I wouldn’t know where to start looking, and would not expect to find much, since at that time Bush was only supporting someone else and not speaking publicly on his own behalf. But then, actions do speak louder that words.