Well, you know perfectly well that there are tens of thousands of women in the military right now, that about half of them are mothers, and that every one of them volunteered.
Why would you then think that there are no women’s groups pressing for women to be included in a draft?
Here’s an excerpt from NOW’s web site:
I’m a woman who served in the military and I know there are several others on this board.
I guess I was the only one expecting this to be about hot babes who use AutoCAD. The Girls of AutoDesk or something.
I agree your word is more appropriate. I said ‘allowed’ because as far as I know, there are still some roles that women are not permitted to fill.
-Lil
I have no cite, but I’ve heard scuttlebutt that lesbians were secretly favored (or at least tolerated) in the early years of thr WACs, WAVEs, etc., on grounds that they showed tougher and more masculine character.
Frankly, I’d be more surprised if the hardcore, kickass soldier of the year was a happily married mother of two kids.
If they introduce conscription, and try to draft me, and they DONT also draft women, I’ll sue for sexual discrimination.
It’s not about getting pregnant before Basic. It’s about getting pregnant before the deployment. 9 months pregnancy plus “a month or two” after they give birth adds up to pretty much an entire combat tour. So basically she just “delayed” herself out of an entire tour of duty.
BTW, eriett4, what was your MOS? I’m curious what job the woman were doing just as good or better than the men and how you think that equats to ground pounding grunt work.
A girl? Sure. Some girls? Sure. Enough woman to make it even close to feasible–financially or otherwise–to change things from the bottom up? Nope.
Basically no - women should not be drafted, they are needed in civil society to support the war machine, and they are also needed to keep society going (due to their ability to bear children). but if the stuff really hits the fan and there is no other option then all bets are off.
If they were drafted, I still think they are very valuable to society for future generations and would not force them into high death rate positions.
That all said I see no problem with women volunteering for any position, as long as they can do it.
You kinda also need men in order for women to bear children.
30 seconds will do. They can do that before they go off to war.
Count me in as another who would disagree with the draft, and were it to take place would disagree with women then being included in the draft. I wouldn’t get pregnant but I’d protest and march and all that. I am all over women being allowed to fight if they *want *to. And if my country was truly in danger I would fight on my own, no draft needed. But I don’t believe my country **ever **knows when it’s right for me to fight nor has that right to make the decision for me.
I will never be behind a draft for women. Women are still fundamentally different from men in that for now at least they are the only feasible way we have to continue the next generation. Equal, but not the same. When we come up with a valid, fool-prrof way of making test-tube babies all the time (completely sans uterus) and the world is OK with it, get back to me then and I may consider it.
All these men are already in relationships, are they?
I don’t think “If women are in the draft, who’s going to bear the next generation?” is a particularly good argument. For one thing, you’d have to send out a message in every draft notice pointing out how the absolute best time to get pregnant is just before one of you ships off to somewhere to risk their lives. And even if you manage to convince people of that, you’d have to start telling people months before the males are sent off so as to give a reasonable amount of time to get pregnant in; the alternative of sperm donation is not likely to be all that popular, i’d wager.
The other thing is; all women aren’t going to be drafted. There’s still going to be a reasonable population left. And even if millions of women are killed, the alternative is more millions of men killed; which would result in less men around for the single and non-pregnant women after the war.
If we ever get into such a hellish, bloody, genocidal war that the very survival of the human species in our corner of the world is put in serious doubt, then I’m with you – the women may just need to stay home and make babies. But barring that incredibly unlikely possibility, I don’t think this argument holds water. I don’t think the United States has ever found itself in that bad a situation; women could have been drafted in Vietnam, Korea, and the World Wars, and we still would have had enough people around to make the next generation. Heck, Israel is facing a much more existential threat than we ever have – people literally trying to wipe them off the map – and they can still see fit to draft women without endangering the next generation.
If people are so worried about having women give birth to ensure the survival of the next generation, we (or, even more appropriately, the Europeans and Japanese) should just bar women from universities and professional careers, since those are the things that more reliably kill the birth rate, not the draft. And no one’s arguing for that.
Oh, I should mention that I don’t necessarily disagree with you on this part of your post (I’m not sure what to think on that issue), just that I think if we do have a draft it should apply to both genders.
I was a 15E, Pershing Missile Crewmember. Everyone had to be able to carry the cable bundles which were extremely heavy and bulky, in addition to maintenance, repair and support roles. The woman I mentioned was about 5’7", 160 pounds, could max out the men’s PE scores and was a kickass soldier. She was an expert marksman with M-16 and eventually became the NBC NCO. She was also a good friend. And she loved D&D, Star Trek and could out-drink most men! If she had been straight I would have married her!
Why don’t you sue now? The current Selective Service Act requires only males between certain ages to register for conscription. Females cannot register.
There are many issues with putting woman in combat roles. The very least of which is being able to lift heavy bundles. Hell, that’s like arguing that women can’t be produce stockers at Wal-Mart. Of course they can. Marksmanship is a more important one, but woman are generally better at shooting than men. I’ve never worked with females shooting in the Army, but that was my experience as a civilian firearms instructor. And I’m never suprised to see females wearing Expert Marksmen badges. Among other reasons, they actually pay attention when you instruct them. Men seem to be more cocky about it and are like “I’m a man! I can shoot. I dont need to do it like that. I know what I’m doing. I can get to level 49 in Call of Duty” :rolleyes:
But anyway, you said the “women” not “this girl” were as good or better than the men. Tell me, when something had to get done, did you never here the phrase “Let’s get some males over here…” Fucking made me puke the first time I heard it. I was like “Are you fucking kidding me??? Is this how it works in a coed unit? Dont we all get fucking paid the same amount, but they dont have to do manual labor because they’re a female? Fuck that!”
But anyway. Women are not held to the same standards as men. If the Army made standards even across the board, and there were enough women who wanted to do the job, then I say bring them on. But the women I come across want nothing to do with that aspect of the military. And if you do anything like take them to the field, they bitch the whole fucking time. And their idea of being in the field is port-o-lets and daily trips to the rear to shower.
“Oh, I’m a female, I have to shower.” “We have hygeine needs. . .”
What the fuck ever! 100 or less women who actually can and want the job are not enough to make changes, I dont think. Then comes the biggest issue which is immature mindset among male peers. Jealousy and relationship issues… its a logistical morale nightmare! Plus, as was mentioned earlier, there’s the whole “Whoops, I’m pregnant! Sorry, me and 12 others are pregnant, the unit is no longer combat effective…” It happens enough in volunteer Combat Service Support units. I couldn’t imagine how often it would happen if you forced women to be infantry.
No Selective Service Act in my country.
Why do Americans assume that America = the whole world?
On this message board, with a meaningless location tag, it’s not a bad assumption.
Hardly. This board has members from all over the globe. I’d bet that a majority of posters are non-American.
The Majority? Are we counting socks too?
Anyway, just to try and make sense of my post which seems to have gone in every direction. Other units already enure all the issues with female integration: the privates have sex with superiors, having sex with many peers and causing cohesion and discipline problems, the accomadation issues of lodging and training, the pregnancy issues, the freakin hair issue. So it’s not like the infantry couldn’t overcome these things. But a lot of the problems are just too senseless, and its one reason people join comboat MOS positions is to avoid all the bullshit problems other units have. It’s more like being in an office or back in high school than it is actually being in the military. People join combat units to be a soldier, to train to fight and win battles. Support units do their support job–and while they’re supposed to keep up with combat skills like once a week, they rarely do. It’s like a day off as oppossed to a day of training.
But the bottom line is this. If women were integrated in to combat roles, they need to be treated as soldiers and nothing less. If males have to shave their heads during Basic, then so do females. If sandbags need to be filled, or if shit needs to get moved from one CONEX to the other, the supervisor should call out for “soldiers” to come help–not for “males” to come. I am all for an integration, provided there are enough willing women to make it worth the effort. But the biggest hurdle is that the very vast majority of men treat female soldiers as just females. And that is my biggest pet peeve. All I see is a uniform, and I expect everyone to perform. Females have lower standards and much, much lower expectations across the board.
I would fucking go insane if someone said, "Here, these are your new female privates. They can only do X, Y, and Z. Dont make them do this, or this, or this. Oh, and here’s the “female regulations”. Make sure you know the female standards along with the male standards now.
A soldier should be treated like a soldier, IMO. And until society and the military can see it that way, woman belong nowhere near a combat unit.
Oh… and "Shhhh. Watch your mouth, there are females over there… " :rolleyes:
Bear_Nenno – I understand your concerns about women in combat roles, but I missed what your stance on drafting women in general would be. Since women are already well integrated into non-combat positions, would you be against drafting them for those positions?