Dune Part 2 Question (Spoilers…I guess)

Cafe Society
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The numbers and ferocity of the Fremen was largely unkown to the Empire, especially with Paradot Kynes (Liet Kyne’s father, Chani’s grandfather) giving them direction (the Greening of Dune) as a prophet (he didn’t see himself that way, but the Fremen did and he took some advantage of it). He and his heir also aided in concealing this all from the Empire and the Harkonnens. The reason that they have no information on the South Polar regions is that the Fremen gather spice to bribe the hell out of the Guild and others to prevent surveillance.

The Missionaria Protectiva myths being quite literally tailor-made to protect and support the circumstances Paul finds himself in, and the Harkonnen atrocities being more than sufficient to motivate any conceivable fence sitters on Dune.

Fulfilling all the prophecies? Apparently that’s enough to create fanatics that will go forth and fight on other worlds. But yes, I tend to think things happened far faster than I find fully rational.

But I tend toward the hyper-rational. It leaves me angry and perplexed when I see the populist movement nurtured by the tan conman, who has a LOT less evidence of Divine guidance than Paul, and yet has legions of adoring fans that believe his every diatribe.

Thankfully, he doesn’t appear to have many if any fedaykin yet.

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My problem with the 1984 movie was the “Weirding Way” became guns that used a person’s voice. Just…why? Did they even read the books?

Also, their thopters sucked (no thopping whatsoever…just hover cubes).

Villeneuve has done both much better.

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Oh, no argument about that. It’s incredibly flawed in so many ways. But doesn’t mean I don’t still watch it from time to time to SEE it all. And the Prophecy Theme rocks. But that’s me.

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From my post in the Movies II’ve seen recently threads, posted Masrch 3:

I saw Dune part two in the theater yesterday. It’s interesting the way they’ve changed it to be more politically correct. Seriously.

They’ve gone out of their way to play down the religious part – the “oracular vision” sort of thing – even though religion and religious fanaticism are a big part of the book. They worked to play down the Great White Savior aspect, too. And, while they couldn’t avoid the sexist implications of Paul being the Kumquat Haagendazs (being the only male who could drink the Water of Life and survive, having capabilities women couldn’t have), they soft-pedaled it.

The sandworm-riding scenes were much better than in the David Lynch or the SciFi versions. I liked the Harkonnen physical feature of baldness and weirdly-shaped heads better than having them all red-headed.

Villeneuve worked hard to tone down the more fantastic elements as much as he could – no grotesquely mutated Guild Steersmen, minimizing the effects of protective fields, and so on. His ornithopters look like the ones in John Schoernherr’s illustration, rather than the way they did in the previous versions. I knda miss the three-loved sandworm mouths – the sandworms actually look the way I’d pictured them when I first read the original book (I hadn’t seen the Analog illustrations at the time).

Having Baron Vladimir Harkonnen being eaten by ants rather than swallowed by a sandworm seems much more appropriate and believable.

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What is this?

Was Dune a “white man saves the natives” story?

I don’t see it. Sure, Paul might be the “white man” but it was the Fremen (not white men) that Paul got power from.

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How can you not see it? Paul comes from off the planet with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men, sand frees the natives who have been fighting the oppressors for years.

They harp on a lot of this throughout both movies, but especially Part II.

Heck, Google “Dune White Savior” and see how many hits it generates, especially on discussion forums.

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After the defeat of Shaddam IV and the Imperial Forces on the Plain of Arrakeen, in 10193 AG, the Fremen expanded the battle off-world, beginning after the deposal of Shaddam IV in 10196.

This Jihad spread throughout the entire universe, pillaging millions of planets. A few campaigns include those on Naraj and its moons. The Fremen Fedaykin commander Farok was head of the Naraj Campaign. - SOURCE

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OTOH I appreciated that they portray the fanatical fervor as something that came mostly from within the hearts and minds of, well, fanatics, even if the “signs” do not look particularly earth-shattering to we who know better – sure there was more than one “I’m not the Messiah/That just proves he is” moments that we rolled our eyes at, but one can tell it was all ready to be triggered. (And we get to see Lady J true to her BG background working to stoke those flames.) Gotta say, the line about “we’ll go to the South, and get the Fundamentalists on our side” made me snicker and wonder if someone would be all up on their podcast about it…

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I mean, nobody in this universe is really “white”, right? The fact that the galaxy is ruled by a “Padishah Emperor” has, to me at least, always indicated that all of humanity is culturally Middle-Eastern, the Atreides and the Harkonnen as much as the Fremen.

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I don’t mean “white” as in Caucasian. It’s the trope of the outsider, coming from more highly technologically advanced culture “saving” the impoverished locals. The new movies frequently remind Paulk that “we can save ourselves”.

Incidentally, when the first Gulf War took place, I kept having images of the Lynch movie 9the only one that had been made by then) running through my head. The night vision scenes looked like the ones running on the nightly news. Paul saying “A Storm is coming — Our Storm”, when the military operation had been designated “Desert Storm”, concern over the use of “atomics” in the desert, and a leader named “Shaddam” when we were facing one named “Saddam”.

Of course, you have to expect that when the source material is based on Middle East culture (and language), and has a pretty heavy analogy between our Middle East situation where transportation depends on a natural resources found there (petroleum) and a fictional one where interstellar transportation depends on a natural resource found there (Melange)

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I did turn to Mrs Magill and say, “He’s not the messiah. He’s a naughty Boy.” At that point.

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Here is an interesting counter point to “Dune is white Savior story”.

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They do not hold a galactic fiefdom and command the kinds of resources that do the Great Houses, but the Fremen produce a load of spice so they are not “impoverished”. They pay off the Guild with huge bribes. Plus they have a lot of small industry, not sure what is the general tech level but e.g. their stillsuits, windtraps, etc. were state of the art.

Padishah is more Persian, Ottoman, Turkic, Mughal, I think.

The Fremen themselves have a complex background, as described in the novel. BTW part of their culture seems Dagestani/Caucasian, they are not purely Middle Eastern either,

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Not just you on that (hah) score.

But otherwise, no. Not just the weirding modules, but the heart-plugs, and the crushed-bug-juice-box, and the blister-syringing.

None of that is baroque, it’s just body horror. It’s like Lynch went over to Cronenberg’s house to crib his notes.

Not that it matters as far as the “Great White Saviour” trope, but Persians are White. And the Atreides are supposedly of Greek origin.

But no, the general galactic culture is not Middle Eastern, it’s very explicitly a European feudal model with an overlay of Early Modern European merchantalism, the name of the Emperor notwithstanding.

That’s irrelevant to the trope, I think. That’s how the Fremen are perceived.

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I said this, and then I remembered the baby from Eraserhead. OK, Lynch never needed lessons in body horror.

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Will Dune 3 reveal who is manufacturing and supplying the seemingly endless numbers of factory-fresh-looking thumpers?

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The Fremen make the devices (and all their other equipment) in the cottage industries in their sietches. Thumpers always look new because they are one-use devices.

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For those that read past the first three books. Did you find Books 4-6 entertaining and enjoyable? I read the first three and began the fourth one and eventually just quit. It was no longer enjoyable even though I 100% respect the intelligence behind the whole thing.

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I’m not sure entertaining is the word, because Dune isn’t always entertaining. Satisfying? Yes.

So, entirely IMHO this is my feeling on 4-6. I like God Emperor in that it is in some ways the endpoint of Dune in and of itself. As a book, and seen in complaints in this and the related thread, there is the fully legitimate complaint that almost nothing happens. There are a few moments (Siona in the Desert, Idaho on the Wall, confrontation on the bridge) that are, shall we say, filmable moments, but otherwise it’s even more of a dialog/monologe fest than the others.

But Leto ties up the ends of Dune, Messiah, and Children, explaining the trap that the Atreides and the BG locked themselves into along with everyone else, and how he’s worked to weld the institutions into a mold that will break when he dies, freeing everyone from what has come before (with greater and lesser success of course).

So satisfying conclusion to all that went before, but again, entertaining? Maybe, maybe not.

5-6 (Heretics, Chapterhouse) are in many ways seperate novels in the same setting, with Duncan Idaho (ghola) being the only direct tie to what comes before. They’re substantially more action-y, so I’d consider them more entertaining than God Emperor. But they’re very closely tied together, and feel in some ways like one megabook than two seperate books.

And the entertainment value is possibly compromised because while not quite a cliffhanger, it ends on a very incomplete note, with a LOT set up for the future, which leaves you either hanging, or reading the sequels writter by Brian Herbert and Anderson, which (again IMHO) don’t match the quality of the senior Herbert’s work, even if they’re adequately written.

I don’t know if that helps.