Ok, I’m starting to read Dune Messiah and I have some questions about the series.
Are the humans decended from Earth?
What are the guildsmen? It is said that they became fishlike (?) because of their contact with the spice. But were they human? Is the form genetic, or do they all start as humans and slowly become that form?
If the spice is needed to travel FTL, how did they do it before discovering Arrakus? I would assume, with it’s environment, it isn’t the home planet of humans so at some point they must have arrived there. Did they not have FTL or was there another way in centuries past?
Frank Herbert’s work was pretty light on the backstory (makes it more mysterious), but I’m certain that Earth was explicitly mentioned at least a few times, but I haven’t read them for a while. Further evidence would be places like “Bela Tegeuse” are corruptions of current terms for star systems (Betelgeuse).
The most recent Dune books I have read are the new ones about the Butlerian Jihad, and they reveal details on all your questions, so…
SPOILERS FOR “THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD” (AND POSSIBLY “THE MACHINE CRUSADE” AND “PRELUDE TO DUNE”)
The humans are definitiely descended from Earth, as it features quite heavily in “The Butlerian Jihad”
In “Prelude to Dune” the guildsmen are just normal people heavily exposed to Spice.
In BTL and TMC Humans have some sort of FTL (it only takes a couple months to travel to other systems), but it is not really explained, much. Also, the “instant travel” (with the Holtzmann Drive) does not require a Navigator; it’s just really dangerous without one.
Undoubtedly someone with a better memory will be here very soon to point out the obvious references I’ve missed.
Although the movies depicted them as weird “things”, I think Herbert diod not consider them like that, at least at first. That idea was more of a popular myth, since they basically lied in tanks full of spice and no-one saw them.
Yes. Earth is considered semi-mythical, as much of human history was lost in the Butlerian Jihad. The planet itself is either lost, or (more likely) destroyed.
The Guildmen were not described in Dune, although members of the Guild wore special contacts to hide their eyes, which had become dark indigo from Spice addiction. Herbert made the Navigators into mutated fish-like creatures in the later books, which were written more as after-thoughts (and as an attempt to defuse the effect of the first book).
It’s possible to travel FTL without prescience, but at limited “speeds”. The civilization described in Dune (which I believe was scattered across three galaxies) was utterly dependent on Spice to permit safe transilience.
There are a couple of Guild representatives in the Imperial palace when Paul breaks in, during the big fight scene near the end of Dune. (I’m sure there’s a better way to describe something involving legions of fanatic warriors, giant sandworms, and atomic weapons, than “big fight scene”, but I can’t be bothered.) IIRC, they look pretty normal in that, except for very deep blue eyes indicating heavy spice usage. Maybe they’re not fully-fledged Navigators, yet, or something, but they certainly talk as if they’ve got precognitive powers through spice use.
True. It’s not clear whether they’re full Navigators, however. Perhaps they are, and they encourage the rumors that they’re somehow mutated so that they can pose as mere representatives, or perhaps the changes come over many years.
Part of the problem is that it’s really difficult to plot a safe course in whatever “space” they are using. I don’t recall if Herbert says precisely what the dangers are, but one could speculate that you have to worry about the ship ending up in a star, or too far from a star in interstellar space…
He says pretty clearly in the books that the spice gives the Navigators enough prescience for them to predict that they’re taking a safe course - and also that they learn a lot of mathematics (which is presumably relevant). I would think that a lot of this could have been done by computers, if computers were allowed (which it isn’t, in their society, at the time that Dune is set in.)
As supporting evidence, I’ll point out that later in the series, as restrictions on IX’s tech development get ignored, they develop mechanical navigators, not needing spice.
Therefore, I would guess that, before the Butlerian Jihad where humanity made the decision to avoid computers, computer navigation made FTL possible. It is a reasonable deduction that they had found Dune (and therefore, had the spice available for human Navigators) by the time the Butlerian Jihad was over.
I don’t know how the Anderson prequels affect this reasoning, but you can get all of the above solely from Frank Herbert’s series.
I think Herbert made it pretty clear that, similar to Han Solo’s quote in Star Wars, you could fly right into a supernova or land in a blackhole if not careful. Non-prescient jumps are possible but highly dangerous for the reason that every one safe jump route contains about 25000 unsafe routes and if you can’t see ahead to figure out one from the other then your odds are pretty dismal.
Dune Messiah clearly depicts the Navigators as being fishlike, and suspended in tanks of spice gas. The guildsmen in Dune, it can be inferred, were not full navigators.
As for Earth, there is a scene in Children of Dune where Paul describes some “ancient history” that is clearly Earth history (he mentions Ghengis Khan, among other conquerers). Also, to quote this FAQ (MINOR SPOILERS BELOW):
Humans are descended from Earth- The Atrades are direct descendents of Agagemonon. (sp?) The Great King of the Greeks around the time of the fall of Troy.
Both Gamina and Leto have memories that go all the way back to that era, and beyond, or so it is hinted at. (all the way back to our primitive ancestors, millions of years as it is described)
The Bene Gesserit also had memories that stretched back to the dawn of Humanity. Leto, of course, knew pretty much everything that ever happened or was ever going to happen.
I guess that it is Dune Messiah where Paul mentions Genghis Kahn and Hitler. And FTR, The Butlerian Jihad makes it clear that Agamemnon isn’t the ancient Greek, but one of the Titans.
Not that the evidence given isn’t enough, but if you make it as far as Chapterhouse: Dune, there’s a colony of Jews that make an appearance. More evidence for Earth.
Yeah, but what gets said in anything written after Herbert’s death has varying importance depending on who you are. For me, it would be absolutely zero.
Have to agree with, ed. If it wasn’t written by Frank, it is worth nothing. Agamemnon referenced by Frank Herbert was the Greek king, not some Titan. That’s just silly.
