Well, as long as you get to make up your own definition of sinful, then this really isn’t a very impressive feat.
Oh course, given that is both also everywhere all at once and ALSO canno tbe in the prescence of/ cannot tolerate sin, he has other difficult things to pull off I guess.
Ouch: lets not even get into THAT can of worms, because that makes even less sense than the rest of it. It’s almost, ALMOST as bizarrely illogical as the trinity claims.
It doesn’t sound right because IMHO it isn’t right. In theory, God cannot tolerate sin because it is contrary to his nature. It’s like darkness trying to exist in the purest brightest light. It just can’t. One passage in the Book of Mormon talks about the pure light of God shining through us and nothing being able to be hidden {a reference you’ll see a lot in the Bible} When our impurities are revealed in the light of God our awareness of them will be like a flame burning us. In that sense being away from God is an act of kindness. Coming from the darkeness into the bright light is painful. We have to get used to the light gradually.
Christians can explain it until someone starts asking about the illogic of it all and then it gets into “Well you just have to have faith” or “It’s in the Bible” which usually means “I don’t really want to question my beliefs that much”
There’s a different slant in “The course in Miricles” that I like. The distance between God and us is not God’s doing but our own. It’s our own choices that create that distance and our own choices that can erase it. It isn’t about pleaseing God to get salvation, but waking up to claim our heritage as spiritual beings.
cosmosdan said:
Cite?
Cite?
Cite?
I’m a Christian.
Try me.
I would submit that it is all so confusing because we live amidst a generation that is no more familiar with the bible as they are with Mein Kampf.
Just like every other major religion; it, and it alone is the truth. Standard stuff.
First, God has no legal or moral authority over me; it’s not like I or anyone elected him. Second, Hussein’s near certain death is an example of “might makes right”, not justice. His execution would no doubt be just as certain if he was the best ruler in history.
The Santa myth violates physics; so does God; simple as that.
That’s when you get into the whole free will thing. Do you think it would do our kids any good if we made it impossible for them to make bad decisions? They learn by making choices and seeing the results of those choices. The same for us.
So, the theory is that God wanted us to have a path back to him, so the whole Jesus thing , and we can get back to God by believing in him and choosing to live a …what shall we call it, a good life, a Christian life, a godly life? Pick one.
I think Jesus and others serve as examples of mankinds potential.
I’m no doubt of a different generation and I have a well-worn copy of Mein Kampf that I use to predict GW’s next legal argument. 
PS. I’m not a Bible scholar by any reckoning, but I’ve read it cover to cover at least three times.
Mankind’s potential ? “Follow Jesus’s example, and you too can die in agony !”
Really, even if I believed in God, I see no reason to want to “get back to God”.
I am willing to consider your theory on communism being a religion, but you will have to make a better case than you have this far.
The fact that you can dismiss Santa with just a sentence or two, and feel God deserves post after post shows me you put more belief in God than Santa…that’s good…
So who has moral authority over you? Your local courts? Are your only rewards those you earn? If that is so you should be out laboring, not debunking God on a silly message board… you will only live for a short while then I guess you just blink off or something. I wouldn’t waste my time interacting with nameless, faceless people on the internet, you better go out and get yours while you can!!
Merely because it doesn’t claim to be a religion, doesn’t mean it isn’t. I can claim not to be human if I want to.
It’s not a refusal to recognise the system of justice, it’s a total logical disconnect between that and your life. To use your (flawed) analogy, it would be like judging Saddam on the basis of what colour his soul is; not something he can effect, or even know about.
Humour you? Certainly. Did Santa damage your roof? Well, they say he moves in mysterious ways…
I don’t think it gets into free will at all - I’m saying, if God wants to teach us that sinning is bad, and that he’s willing to sacrifice his son for us, why doesn’t he just tell us? Or, given that he’s ultimately powerful, why doesn’t he just make us know? I don’t see how making us know something has anything to do with free will; on the contrary, it would make everything much clearer - we would know what him upstairs wants, and thus we’re easily able to do it for him. If we want to.
David Simmons said:
That was funny.
But you would probably agree that most haven’t read it. And my point is/was simply this: Most people haven’t cracked open a bible at all/in years.
The average person (including most posters to biblical threads) have no clue as to what they’re posting about. (except in the most cursury, superficial and often anecdotal way)
If a person read 3-5 chapters a day—at the rate that an average adult can read—(aboput 175 words/min), it would take the average adult 1 year to read the entire bible. That’s a 20 minute a day commitment—for 365 days.
I don’t disbelieve you. But I am naturally wondering why it would still be confusing…
Look for the kingdom of heaven with yourself. The Holy Spirit {that dwells within}will guide you into all truth and the truth will set you free.
Those are the most obvious but there are many more.
Just because **Der Trihs ** says it *is * a religion does not make it one. He said it. The burden of proof is on him.
But if God exists, saying you do not recognize His authority is not going to be a defense. If He does not exist, then I will have been wrong. We will just have to wait and see.
He did…He does…maybe you aren’t listening?
Not so. As it’s already been pointed out, people have killed, maimed, etc in the name of God. As soon as that happens with Santa, i’ll be there debating. As it happens, I feel God is more important to debate - while as an agnostic, I am inclined to say that I cannot be sure whether God exists, I am of sufficient belief that he doesn’t that I may lump him in with Santa.
*I * have moral authority over me. The courts have legal authority over me. Honestly, I’m usually pretty tolerant of people, but I really don’t like it when religious people assume that without religion, we’d all be immoral beasts. I have my own moral code, thanks very much.
Could not the same be said for you? You earn your “rewards” (eternal life in heaven, going back to God, whatever) by your actions in life - what are you doing debating for God on a silly message board when you could be helping people??
Quite possibly, yes. I’m an agnostic; so I don’t know what will happen. Could be nothing, might not. Who knows?
Yes, you’re right! I’d better go back to my raping and pillaging! I cannot live until I posess all that I want, and everyone else be damned.
Or, you know, not.
Ok, that’s fair.
So what, I should do what God says, because he might exist? What if i don’t agree with him? (and I don’t, on many issues). If he does exist, and i have led my life in a way displeasing, well, fine, i’m going to Hell. I’ll at least have the knowledge that I led my life in a way that I feel is morally right, rather than bow to the whims of a dictator.
Equally, maybe you’re hallucinating?
Maybe i’m not clear. To give a really stupid example, let’s say God wanted to teach us sinning is bad. So, he conjures giant floating orange letters in the air, saying “Don’t sin!”. I’m saying this would be a much better method of communication than killing his son - do you not agree?
My best friend is agnostic and is one of the most moral people I know.I don’t have a problem with that. I didn’t mean to come across that way.
“If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck” . Look at all the features of religion Communism has : It’s based on faith, not evidence; it sticks it’s symbol everywhere; it tries to convert/destroy unbelievers and heretics; it has a revered prophet and a strict hierocracy; it is casual about mass murder; it cares nothing for reality; it is obsessed with ritual ( remember all those parades ? ); it holds it is the sole source of truth. If it’s not a religion, it’s a close relative.
Nonsense. I don’t believe in God; I just consider religion far more dangerous than belief in Santa.
Sheer luck is more important than “earning” anything IMHO. We are small; the world is big, and can easily crush all our efforts.
The courts have authority over me because they are part of an elected government, which controls the place where I live, and because the rule of law has objective benefits for me ( and everybody else ).
I like talking on the boards; why would I stop ?
Myths built into religious belief. We actually have very little historical info about Jesus, so much of what is in the NT might be myth. A whole lot in the OT is myth or metaphor that many embrace as literally true. AS I understand it the whole virgin birth thing is borrowed from other religions as well as other aspects of the life of Jesus.
I’m afraid I don’t. It’s likely a combination of different Christian beliefs and interpretations of some of the classic passages. Is there something in particualr you don’t see as standard Christian theology?
Alright. I apologise for thinking that’s what you meant. 
Yeah that was a pretty shitty thing for me to say. Sorry.
Listen, message board debates have a tendancy to pit people against each other and have us yearning to point and counter-point each other into submission. This does not show who I am as a Christian. If you were here at my house we would open a beer and have a lively chat. I would take your points and you would take mine. I take it seriously when Jesus says to love our neighbors as ourselves. He doesn’t qualify it by saying his straight neighbors, or white, or those that agree with you, or Republicans, or anything…just love your neighbor as yourself. I wouldn’t beat you over the head with my message. I would just try to relate to you as a brother (unless you are a sister). So if you can come to the point of loving others unconditionalyy without faith in Jesus, good for you. I wish you HAD faith in Jesus, its where I hang my hat, but it would not stop me from welcoming you into my home or feeding you if you were hungry or asking for your help if I was in need…
Peace…