I’m sure Mighty_Girl is plenty smart, which is why I felt completely happy to chime in on this discussion to agree with her position.
How much more do I really want to get into this today? *There isn’t any “issue” anymore on this exchange which requires my comment or opinion?? * Are you fucking kidding me?
I have made my opinion on the matter quite clear, and I intend to express my opinion on any matter that crops up on these boards as long as my dues are paid!
The issue that caused me to raise my eyebrow was the indication that her point in bringing up the politics in certain cultures was invalid. I believed it was perfectly valid and said so. Simple.
Then please explain to me just exactly what else on this issue between you and me there is to discuss. Are you really not understanding this? Mighty_Girl explained what I questioned her on. There is no outstanding issue. Except you seem to think there is and have gone out of your way to involve yourself. I see no reason to continue to thrash over this issue, since Mighty_Girl fucking explained it. Nonetheless, let’s get to the heart of the matter. What outstanding issue is there on this subject between us which you feel you need to express your opinion on as long as your dues are paid?
FTR, it looks like Guin felt that the post made by Mighty_Girl was wrong, like I did. I expect you’ll be taking her to task for that, if you want to be fair and honest about your position. Unless, of course, your stepping in was really just “personal,” which might explain why you’re doing your best to escalate things. So if you don’t respond to her, then I can only assume this is a personal thing, and since I barely know who you are (aside from when I tried to defend you when you were being taken to task over your original name) then I have no idea what’s setting you off.
I suppose you missed my subsequent posts entirely. **Una **raised that same argument and I explained that I never made that point. I would expect you give me courtesy of arguing something I actually said. If you didn’t read my later posts never mind, I can’t beat that.
You say you feel is “stupid”, and you are entitled to your opinion, we just want to know what valid points you have to feel it is stupid. Few people here can come and say something and say “I just feel that way!” to justify their opinions. I’ve been around enough to know that.
The point we’re trying to make are that the reasons some have raised to justify their opinions don’t seem to validate them. It is no more dangerous than simply learning how to walk. It has a cultural reason why people do it (like Xmas tree, and circumcision, which we’ve yet to learn if you find equally stupid). So, please elucidate us on why you think it is stupid.
I feel it’s stupid because I don’t understand the point. Piercings can become infected, they require extra care, and a person really should be in a position to decide IF they want one in the first place.
I think it’s mostly done for vanity reasons. There are other ways of making a child look cute that don’t involve permanent markings and such. I also think the idea of holding a child down JUST for a cosmetic procedure is rather distasteful and yes, a bit cruel.
You’re free to disagree, of course.
ETA: Circumcision as a routine practice seems to me unnecessary, without a valid medical reason. Especially for those who want their sons to look like Dad, or not to feel bad/different/made fun of in the locker room.
Oh. I am going to back the hell out of the whole discussion then, if my involvement means that I have a personal thing against you. I surely don’t know you at all. I regret to admit that I don’t remember you defending me, and I don’t recall ever needing defending.
So, please, accept my apologies. Cause the last thing I want is for anyone to labor under the illusion that I have something personal against them.
More likely, I had failed to communicate myself clearly, before. I do admit that I am still growing in that ability. So, again… my apologies, Una.
I have never met a woman who wished she had never pierced her ears. “I have these tiny little holes in my ears! I look so HIDEOUS! DAMN YOU, OPPRESSORS!!!”
This discussion is ridiculous. The whole process lasts what? Five minutes at the most? The pain is sharp but brief, your lobes are tender for awhile, and that’s it.
I wear earrings once or twice a month, but even I’m glad I got my ears pierced when I was a small child. Earrings make for great accessories, and if I had waited till adulthood–well-aware of all the pain and risks–I might have been too chicken to go through it.
I have a feeling that all this discomfort about young kids wearing jewelry comes from some Puritanical prudishness–a feeling that earrings are associated with sex and maturity. I know a lot of people (usually whites) make earring piercings a rite of passage for teenage girls. Great. But for some cultures jewelry is just jewelry. Some people just think earrings make a little girl “cute”, along with ribbons, hairbows, and frilly skirts. Believe it or not, as a tomboy little girl, I rebelled more against the stupid clothes I had to wear than the earrings my mother made me wear.
What I don’t understand is why people assume that everything must have a logical, rational, pragmatic reason for it to be valid and justifiable. If it’s not doing long-term harm to anyone, it brings happiness to the people, and none of the participants have beefs with it when they realize what’s been done to them, why the fuck should anyone care?
I admit it’s possible that I was not clear as to the object of discussion when I referred to there not being any further need to comment, which may have prompted your second to last post, thus leading to further confusion as to why the discussion needed continuation. How about we both just laugh at the silly irony of me not understanding you, you not understanding me, and a whole bunch of arguing over nothing? Peace?
You see, you and I are not so far apart in our opinions, only mine are a bit more nuanced and don’t include the word stupid applied so generously.
I disagree that parents should do unnecessary procedures on their children, but feel this doesn’t merit my scorn, claims of stupidity or any of the sorts.
Since it has been my experience that at least in this country, where baby ear-piercing is expected, it does not represent any danger to the baby in practical terms. It is done at the clinic, in most cases while they are cleaning the newborn, it is rarely done more than a couple of weeks later. Most kids I’ve seen sleep through it, nurses numb their earlobes with ice and they don’t seem to feel much. People here have good experience taking care of ear piercings (which is nowhere near as daunting as caring for a newborn’s belly button), so complications are unknown.
For the reasons above I reserve my label of “stupid” for the people that felt necessary to inform me that I was wrong for not piercing my baby’s ears and couldn’t keep their damn opinion to themselves. They are close-minded and haven’t reflected on the fact that reasonable people can disagree with their opinion.
The fact that some parents go at it the wrong way (waiting until the girl is a toddler, using a gun, going to a mall, etc.) gets a similar disapproving reaction from me. There is a certain imprudence added to their decision that I find not so tolerable. Which is not to say that some people don’t do it in a way that minimizes to a extreme the chances of complication and discomfort.
In short: no, I don’t label the practice “stupid”. Some parents are stupid. Some parents are not prudent. Some people (on both sides) are close-minded. Which is hardly news.
Hi, I’m Drain Bead. I have a metal allergy. I’ve had my ears pierced twice, once as a six-year-old child (and yes, it was traumatic–mom took me to some shitty place in the mall that used the gun, and after they did the first one it took her an hour to talk me into the second one) and once as an adult. As a six year old, we used gold earrings, and they were constantly infected. Mom took meticulous care of them, but they never properly healed and were constantly red and crusty. After about a year of trying every type of metal, she finally relented and allowed them to close. I seriously could not sleep on my side the entire time they were in.
As an adult, I decided that titanium would be good. I went to a proper piercing shop, got them done with a needle, and got an eyebrow ring to boot. I still have the scar from the eyebrow ring’s odd infection–it created a large purple lump right below my eyebrow. The titanium studs in my ears (five in one ear, one in another) got so infected, despite my following the care instructions to the letter, that my ear actually SWALLOWED the middle stud a few times, and I had to dig it out of the hole. I couldn’t sleep on my side once more. Again, it lasted about a year and a half before I gave up. I now have some nice scars on my ears and my face as a constant reminder of how earrings aren’t safe and painless for everyone.
And that’s why I would NEVER do it to an infant of mine.
Please take off your defensive glasses for just a moment–I was NOT singling out Latino culture. I said I disapprove of the marking of infant girls in this way. I still say that. Merienee brought up what I thought was a good point re the marginalization of girls. (unless s/he was using hyperbole for effect and I was whooshed). That’s all. I mentioned bride price and dowries because in some OTHER cultures, baby girls do indeed wear their dowries. That point alone should have proved that I wasn’t “picking on” YOUR culture. I made a general statement about cultures. I’m sorry if you took it to mean only yours. You were mistaken.
I do not pity your culture. Where did you get that from? I do pity baby girls who have no say in the matter of ear piercing, but as I’ve said muliple times–that is my opinion only. There are plenty of messed up things about my own culture (which you say is also yours, or was that someone else?)–please read my posts, and don’t infer things from them. FWIW, as a nurse, I can attest to the fact that infant ear piercing is done quickly, safely and most hygienically when done early in life. That said, they can and do get infected, and nickel allergy, as Guin said, CAN be a concern.
If you all would look back, you’d see that nowhere have I said that X culture is wrong for doing this. I have said, repeatedly, that it is not something I am comfortable with–from my very first post I said this. I’m not sure why you all think I am the arbiter of YOUR culture’s customs, because I’m not. I feel like I’m talking to a wall here. It’s frustrating.
This is tiresome. I did not say those girls were oppressed. I did say, in agreement with Merienee, that girls are marginalized–I think this is true of all cultures, really. It’s a sad statement. And she’s absolutely correct in saying that my daughter’s (or any of our daughters) process of self-determination will always have a large cultural overtone. Well said, Merienee!
You’re half right. For my “people”, ear piercing is done as a right of passage. Not quite sure where the Puritanical bit comes in there-or perhaps that was an inference? It would seem that there is no honor among thieves here–I am accused of slighting whole populations and now the favor is returned because WASPS tend to mark their girls later on in life. Pot meet kettle? (the difference taht is salient to me is that the pre-teen can choose-the baby can’t…).
I came in this thread stating that infant ear piercing was most likely cultural–not mine, but others. I see your mother “made” you wear earrings–does that mean you would have preferred not too? My mother made me wear slips and MaryJanes with white anklet socks–I hated them as well.
My point (and I think yours, too) was that all choices when it comes to personal adornment are at least somewhat based on culture or at least group mores. But that doesn’t mean that such choices are moral etc. I really don’t understand this need for universal approval of customs. I said, and I repeat, I tolerate the difference. I see no reason to approve of it. And just to be clear: you all are (of course) free to disapprove, but tolerate my customs.
I hope this helps…
I remember feeling grateful that my parents hadn’t pierced my ears throughout my tomboyish childhood.
I did eventually get them done (two in each ear and a nose piercing between the ages of 17 and 20) but the point is that I did it when I wanted it.
Some time while I was in the university I stopped wearing earrings, just because. I then proceeded to develop a raging metal allergy from which I didn’t suffer before (or it was tolerated to the point of not noticing it while I wore earrings full time).
My in-laws gave me a beautiful set of platinum earrings and chain for my wedding present. I used them a grand-total of 2 hours before my ears were oozing some clear liquid. Luckily I am not a big fan of jewelry.
My mom, who saw me wear earrings for half of my life with no complications, is not entirely convinced that I am just not imagining it.
What DDG said, with a slight modification. I got my ears pierced for the first time at about 15 or 16, then again in my twenties. I remember it as a very brief quick sting, over as soon as the studs were in. Even the cleaning and after care with the rubbing alcohol was just a slight sting.
I also agree that it was more likely fear or anger at being held down, rather than that it was painful enough to cause the sort of screaming and panic described in the OP.
