Can you please provide a cite for this? Which federal/state/local laws and which eBay/Paypal rules control these transactions and shipments?
There are literally thousands of Federal, Postal, State & Local regs & laws that merchants must follow, and also those who use the mails must follow. IANAL, and I am not going to list every one of these thousands of regs & laws. :rolleyes: I suggest you hie yourself to the Post Office, and ask for their pamphlet on Mail fraud. You congressman could help, also. Your local DA or State Consumer affairs office shoudl be helpful
You should know where to find eBays rules, if you are a registered User. However, here is one example:
"Unreasonable shipping or handling costs - Listings with low prices but unreasonably high shipping or handling costs.
Listings with additional purchases - Listing an item that requires or offers an additional purchase. For example, travel certificates that require the holder to buy or pay for something (such as a hotel room for seven nights) as a condition of receiving the benefit of the coupon (such as free or discounted airfare)."
The rules are quite lengthy.
Here’s the overview
I don’t know if it’s exactly the same inthe USA, but the UK has statutes concerning consumer transactions, mostly contained in the Sale Of Goods Act; vendors cannot simply contract the consumer out of his statutory rights by putting something in the small print.
Regarding the eBay rules: Sorry, I didn’t make myself clear. I wasn’t referring to exorbitant shipping costs but rather the “seller is responsible for the package no matter what happens” idea. I’ve read through a few pages of eBay rules in the past and I can’t find anything that specifically states that making sure the package arrives in good condition is either party’s responsibility. Why is it (and where does it state) that insurance is to protect the seller, not the buyer, for example?
And about US laws: (Like above) Fraud aside, who has responsibility when no deliberate foul play is involved but the package arrives damaged or otherwise less than complete? As for merchant regulations and laws, do they also apply to individuals and not businesses? For example, would garage sale vendors be subject to these same rules, and if not, what makes eBay sellers any different?
That’s not necessarily in the eBay rules, and it probably shouldn’t be, since eBay is only a facilitator in the transaction. The scope of responsibilities is common sense though, and is mired in the traditions and years and years and years of precedent. If Amazon charges your credit card and you don’t receive your package, who takes responsibility for it? Do a search for a recent thread that includes the term “freight on board” and you’ll find all of the cites. Hint: freight on board is a legal term that transcends the seller’s responsibility to guarantee receipt. Essentially it means the seller can disclaim responsibility, but only if it’s plainly declared. Offering insurance to a buyer isn’t good enough. Plainly stating (as a seller) that you don’t guarantee anything without insurance is good enough. This stupid confusion could be cleared up if everyone knew how to use the magic letters F.O.B., and all purchasers knew to avoid these sellers ;).
Well, here you would be better off reading Paypal’s rules. Basicly, if the buyer doesn’t get the stuff then Paypal will charge back to the seller, no matter how much the seller protests he’s sent it. Now, if it’s been signed for (or “delivery confirmation”) then it gets sticky. eBay hasn’t bothered to include a full set of US Federal & Postal Regs into it’s terms.
And, stuff like a postal reciept for postage doesn’t prove anything.
As to Postal regs- it is rather simple if the buyer didn’t get the package- the seller is 100% responsible (the seller might well have a claim to recover, true, but he’s responsible). The PO relies heavily on Common law here, so it’d be hard to find ONE specific Postal reg that says exactly that. But again, if the package does arrive, but isn’t intact, it gets sticky.
However, really, it just plain makes sense- the buyer is responsible to see that the payment gets to the seller- thus the seller is responsible to see that the goods get to the buyer.
Sorry for the slow reply. I somehow missed this post the last time I saw this thread.
eBay, as the facilitator, should at least lay out the rules for the seller and buyer even if eBay itself isn’t responsible; this is just to faciliate transactions and let people know what they should do when stuff like this happens. “Work it out” isn’t good enough since, sometimes, a compromise simply can’t be reached.
Common sense and tradition don’t really help here because eBay has formed its own set of traditions. As for Amazon, I discussed this point in the other thread as well: Basically, many eBay sellers are individuals or small businesses who cannot simply absorb these incidents as a cost of doing business the way Amazon can.
Isthis the “other thread” you were referring to? If so, I was actually a participant there. There are no cites there aside from the ones I provided and the Wikipedia one, which actually disagrees with you. And even if it didn’t, it could be argued that the shipper is actually the buyer’s customer (if the buyer paid for shipping) and that the seller is just a financial agent who transferred money from the buyer so the buyer could get his package moved.
I wish eBay would just be explicit with their rules, but I suspect they’re trying to be purposely vague so they don’t drive away potential buyers or sellers. Nonetheless, one of these days I should write them and ask for written clarification…
I remember, and yes, that’s the right thread. But
Well, the Wikipedia article actually agrees with me, but being Wikipedia, it’s not a resource that I really want on my side as an authority.
In any case, eBay can’t have a specific rule, because the default is seller responsibility. It would cause chaos if their hidden default buried in their terms of service were contrary to common law! It would be legal, but chaotic. Additionally without explicitely stating so, eBay and PayPal have a de facto policy that supports me – they are very, very liberal in taking the purchaser’s side in a shipping dispute. Item didn’t arrive? Refund. Arrived broken? Refund.
I don’t know what the big deal is; all the seller has to do if he wants to be a dickhead is explicitely disclaim responsibility in his auction listing. There’s no disclaimer of responsibility that’s automatic. A good number of eBay sellers already do this. But the better approach as a seller is just to protect yourself and pay for your own damn insurance. That’s what everyone overcharges on shipping and handling for, right?
Being a small seller without the resources of Amazon is a piss-poor excuse. Do you think Amazon didn’t start small? If you’re in business, you’re in business. It’s not important whether you’re a puny little guy that can’t pay the rent unless you sell that last fake Rolex; it’s the decision you made in life and if reflects your talent as a seller if you’re not the size of Amazon.
Finally, what you’re saying is that without a disclaimer of responsibility, is that I can do this as the purchaser: I sent you my money order – it’s not my fault the post office lost it. So where the hell’s my PowerBook?
Wrong, see my post above “* There are special exemptions when stuff is shipped “FOB”. In this case, the seller is responsible for delivering the goods only to the common carrier- who then inspects and then also assume the responsibilty of delivery. Only big shit is shipped FOB, and usually business to business (and usually by rail). It would be extremely unusual for eBay goods to be shipped FOB.”
Just putting FOB in your ToS doesn’t cut it- you have to really use “FOB”, which means you have to prove that you delivered **said goods ** to a common carrier- who then accepted said goods and the liabilty thereto.
Gotcha – I’ll revise from saying “FOB” to using FOB-like terms. Which many people on eBay do anyway, and I’m really not sure what the big deal is. It’s the exemptions that I’m saying need to be present in an auction listing.
IANAL, but I don’t think that putting “I am not responsible for the items after they leave my hands” in your ToS really absolves you of any legal responsibility. I do know that it absolves you of getting any bid from me. 
See my post above where I said: " AND never buy from sellers that say they are “not responsible” for goods getting to you. That shows three things: They are ignorant of the law, they don’t give a rats-ass about customer service, and even though you will prevail in a complaint, it won’t be fast or easy. Avoid them like the plague."
I’ll bet you a nickle that sellers with that in their ToS get exactly the same treatment from Paypal in the case of a Chargeback complaint.