I tells ya, it brings a tear to my eye.
(Or is that the onion I’m chopping?)
These actions unquestionably fit any definition of terrorism. And it’s nice to know that people realized that was the case even when not everybody was as concerned about terrorism as they are now.
What about the firefighters who are forced to risk their lives to put out these people’s “protest?” I’m sure ALF and ELF take great care to make sure the fire doesn’t hurt them either.
I blame Ed Abbey. The Monkey Wrench Gang made Eco-terrorism so fashionable and romantic that the weak-willed and simple-minded thought it was Good and Proper.
Poor Ed. All he wanted was to be left to his desert and have a little cash too. Who knew morons would take him seriously. He and Bob Heinlein must be shaking their heads somewhere, hopefully over a heavenly libation, wondering just how Mankind got so stooopid.
Must’ve been a helluva dinner, or is booklyn being enviro-friendly and can’t post without solar cells?
See that is what I am talking about.
Please don’t treat booklyn as representative on environmentalist.
I actually do have a solar Panel system on my house. It is an Eco-friendly system that should pay for itself in 8-12 years. So many people in the environmental movement are as rational as anyone else but groups like ELF, ALF, PETA and other fringe groups reduce us to caricatures.
Is it terrible to sign petitions and write letters for a more fuel efficiency standards? Reducing dependence on foreign oil strengthen America.
Do you dislike clean water and clean beaches or are you nostalgic for sewage dumping into our rivers and streams?
Remember when smog was an every day occurrences in all large cities or the Passaic River in NJ use to catch fire? Yes the River use to catch fire.
I am guilty of buying energy efficient products, composting my grass and leaves, doing cleanups and oh the great sin trying to prevent the slaughter of cetaceans. Even if you don’t agree with me that these are important, are these bad things?
Most environmentalists understand that there are many positions and views on all subjects and that it is far easier to make changes by working with business and government than against it.
Jim (sorry for the long diatribe, you hit a sore spot)
You got any proof for that statement? I’ll take scientists, scientific tests, and/or whatever else you got.
Eh, you kinda got a point on the overuse of the word “terrorism,” but “sabotage?” That’s still terrorism. Wait, that’s what you said. Well, what the hell do you want?
Jim,
No question that you have every right to get upset with the attitude that a lot of us anti-greens* show at times. I think you’re imputing motives to Danceswithcats that aren’t there. I really took the comment as a specific one, not general. Certainly you’ve got a fully justified complaint with anyone painted all environmentalists with the reasoning of ALF/ELF or booklyn. And it happens far more often than I’d like. Even once, is too often, and it is a recurring theme.
*BTW, I hate that term, I just don’t know any other way to put it. I’m not anti-green, really - but I also am skeptical of a number of positions that are put forward as being green, too.
For example, I’m still of the opinion that the outlawing of PCBs is a mistake. It’s not that I doubt the damage they can and have done to the environment. It’s just that I question that the replacements are any better for the environment, and some are arguably worse. PCBs are ideal from an engineering standpoint because they’re non-reactive, stable, and good heat-transfer compounds. That’s not something that can be said of many of the replacement oils.
Now the idea of burying used transformers in the NY/NJ swamps with the PCBs still in the xformer makes me cringe. But the situation would still have been bad with any of the current replacements in the same situation.
Similarly, I question the effectiveness of the freon replacement compounds, too. AIUI there is evidence coming out that the bromine-based freons are just as much of a problem in the high atmosphere as the flourine and chlorine ones have been. (I like ammonia, myself. But that’s not popular because… well… it stinks locally.)
Balancing costs on environmental issues is incredibly difficult, and there’s a whole spectrum of reasonable responses. Unfortunately, the people in ALF/ELF and their most vocal opponents refuse to accept that.
OtakuLoki: Just want to say thank you.
I am so eternally proud of the Clearwater people. I did my tiny bit for the Sojourner Truth… Those are good people. They do things right.
FWIW What Exit?, I’m fully aware of the vast gulf between mainstream environmentally minded folks and the fringe nutbags who make the news and occasionally start threads like this one. 
I’m a guy who lives out in the woods, recycles as much as I can, and basically wants the trees & critters left alone.
Post #64 was a poke at our guest, who apparently didn’t care for a post-dinner flame and rant with his tea, not SDMB regulars who care for the planet and can express themselves in a lucid manner. Thank you, OtakuLoki for conveying that thought.
We don’t. I doubt anyone here honestly beleives anyone is “anti-environment”. It would be akin to being “anti-oxygen”. It’s a worthy cause, but when the faction that states mankind is doomed (DOOMED!) in 50 years starts making noise, it becomes entertaining.
Who the hell are these fools, and why haven’t the gotten their medication?
My dear dopers-
How exciting this is! Real discourse with people who care about ideas!
I do not want to convince anyone of anything. Nor am I an apologist for the violent and reprehensible actions of ALF,PETA, or ELF. I mearly wanted to problematize the use of the word “terrorist”. I mean, the us gov. is spying on/infiltrating ala’ COINTELPRO the Quakers and the Catholic workers because of “suspected” links to terrorists. Are all people who disagree with the current administration going to be labled terrorists too? By the by, as I stated in the thread clarification these groups labled themselves terrorists. And I agree with their own lable. I am with A.R.CANE (post #7) on the issue of violence as a tool for social change. SAILBOAT has hit the nail on the head as well- why are these groups targeted? Is it because they killed a bunch of people? No, it is because they are acting in organized concert against the prevailing political structure; they are a threat to the status quo.
It is very interesting to me that the anonominity of the forum allows for people to project whatever their personal bias onto whomever chooses to post. Myself included.
So onto answering the folks who had some beef:
EDDYTEDDYFREDDY- #20, I agree that the cited actions are terroristical.
DUFFER- here is the cite for the 25,000 dead: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=9fdb902c349bb9859f26cc21dd5277aa&submit3=Enter+Site
Haliburton is a gang of crooks and terrorists. You disagree? Bring it on. And I agree Kyoto is flawed but it is a start in the right direction. And contrary to your post #52 I believe that life on this planet is not just human, that all of it is valuable and important to the whole. Just because I want to investigate the langauge being bandied about so glibly I am an asshole? My my, what a pleasant and intelligent thing to say, you netherthroat.
SILENUS- I brought up the bombing of Iraqi civilians and the corporate environmental agenda as an example of terrorism. Sorry you couldn’t follow that.
And my dinner was delicious beasts from the sea and land. Please make no assumptions about my personal life. Also per yr post #41- “You think thats air your breathing?”
GAWD- thanks for the welcome, perhaps another thread another day about personal/private property?
MARLEY23- That is the firefighters job, to put out fires. Do I worry about the postal workers because they choose that job?#62
DANCESWITHCATS- Heheheeee…#64
WEIRDDAVE- #47 Where did I misatribute your quote? The corporate shill and the facist comment came from your immediate jump to death penalty. Yah killing people is real civilized. You can still be a shill and self employed.
WHATEXIT- I made no claims to being an environmentalist. A mentalist maybe…#54 terror from hightec bomber is still terror. And righton to the clearwater folks-direct action gets results.
WOLFIAN- ecological collapse cite: http://www.mindfully.org/Heritage/Business-As-Usual-UNEP15may02.htm, and what I wanted from this thread has happened- I wanted to see what this community thought of the usage of the word terrorist.
OTAKULOKI- I will ask you not to lump me with the aforementioned groups, thank you very much; or their violent actions. Violence makes everyone feel more afraid, wheather it is by bombers high in the sky or in some car dealership.(#49 & #68).
So thanks for giving a full breasted reply to this rather incohate thread post, all of you. Really fun. I think I will get a membership. Unless I am banned. I like the honest and forthright way yall come at this. To post such an incindeary topic in the BBQpit was baiting folks to come out with the big guns- perhaps a wee bit hacky, but interesting as hell.
No, only those that blow shit up.
They don’t need medication; they’re just a bit loopy after huffing the fumes from burning Humvees.
“Hey, let’s go out to the suburbs and vandalize some SUVs! That’ll teach those big evil corporations!”
Millenialists, mostly, I’d suspect. People expecting the Last Trump. As per the stories about James Watt.
A few points:
- NAIA is an unreliable source: it’s an advocacy group for ranchers, furriers, etc. Same for animalrights.net, a group that even chooses a disingenuous url. Cites to nytimes, bc.co.uk, etc. are reliable sources.
- Ask a hundred people for an example of terrorism, and you’ll get a hundred examples of activities intended to kill people. Unless you ask someone who works for NAIA or the likes, you won’t get a single mention of burning hummers.
- It’s perfectly possible to object to the use of the word “terrorism” to describe ALF and simultaneously to call for the prosecution of ALF on other charges. It’s not as though an arson conviction carries a maximum sentence of 100 hours community service: call the crimes by their correct names, secure convictions on those correct names, and you’re talking about decades behind bars.
- Those ALFers who place bombs in home garages? Terrorists.
Daniel
Like **E-Sabbath ** said, millennialists. These are the same sort of people who wanted nuclear war with the Soviet Union, because they’d be raptured into heaven before the bombs hit. Religious loons, in other words.
Spiking Trees: Designed to be a lethal threat to loggers, as a chainsaw hitting a spike would then break, sending the now shattered chain flying. It’s remarkably like a landmine, in that manner, and in how it could be found, the hard way, years later.
Stalking people, making threatening comments? Yeah, they call it eco-terrorism for a reason. Just because you may approve of the theoretical goal is no reason to defend it.
The ends never, ever, ever justify the means. Unless the threat is imminent, and unplanned. Whereupon it becomes situational.
This stuff doesn’t qualify.
I read a lot about these guys in the early nineties, including books such as Ecodefense, the Bible of the environmentalist criminal movement. Your statement about the design of tree spiking is factually incorrect: tree spiking was an industrial sabotage technique originally designed by Wobbly loggers to damage the lumber mills of unfriendly companies. Environmentalist criminals have never, in any cites I’ve ever read, spiked trees at a height where they would be hit by a chainsaw. If you’ve got a reliable cite to the contrary, I’d love to see it.
Again, this is not defending their actions: try them for major property damage, and I won’t object. But I take this board’s mission seriously.
Daniel
I am the CLIT master! 
Uhhhh, are you sure that’s what you’re after?