Economic woes solving plan: Government hires everyone

I’m liberal, so consider this post from that perspective.

A few notes first: I don’t care about making government smaller, I don’t assume that private enterprises are intrinsically better, nor that government is intrinsically worse. I feel that the size of government is not directly a cause of less freedom, so cries of socialism or other crap will fall on deaf ears. Like Republicans, I don’t believe the deficit is a problem. Oh I’m sorry, I was talking about Republicans under Bush and Reagan when they had control of the White House and spent to their heart’s content. Ha, ok snark aside, I don’t feel a high deficit or future debt is an immediate or large problem.

With that said, I unveil my plan to solve the nation’s economic crises: The government hires everyone who wants to be hired.

Currently, the national unemployment rate stands at 9.2%. That’s 14.1 million people if we use the labor pool (defined as people able to work and who are not children, elderly, disabled, yadda yadda yadda) of 153 million people. I’ve looked at several sources and it seems the consensus is that the amount of federal workers stands at 1.8-2 million with another approximately 600000 postal employees, so lets just say a nice round 2.5 million to make things easier

Basically, the plan will work like this: The feds will expand their roster of workers in all of their departments by 500%, bringing up the 2.5m workers to an even 15m. This will eliminate unemployment. I suppose if one wants to simply go back to a “good” economy instead of a super fun happy orgasm economy, you can increase it by only 400% and leave about 1.6 million people unemployed, resulting in a pretty damn good unemployment rate of only 1%

This wouldn’t be an issue save for objections by people who think that government is the cause of all of life’s problems. They’ll whine about how we’ll pay for all these people, and how its just wasting money. Other will abhor the fact that federal unionized employees vote Democratic, or that it will somehow kill the private sector of something or other, I don’t know, its hard for me to tell

On the issue of money, it wouldn’t be a problem if the debt ceiling isn’t a problem. Eliminate the debt ceiling and we can borrow as much as we want to pay for it.

One might then object, noting that all these people would be essentially doing nothing, as there’s not enough stuff for an extra 12.5 million people to do. But on the contrary, I’d say, there’s plenty of things for people to do. Jobs disappeared because people couldn’t afford to hire, so layoffs and firings ensued. You’re telling me that 10 years ago, with a booming economy and hundreds of millions less people on the planet, that there was more stuff to keep track of, more stuff to do, and more opportunities? Bollocks! The reason why business needs to keep growing is that there is always room for expansion. Take away the #1 cause of people not hiring (not enough money) and they will be able to hire a lot more people than are employed

Republicans, I haven’t forgotten about them, love to lower taxes. Lets do that! In fact, lets lower taxes so much that we’re basically giving people money! You know what that’s called? Its called a job, where you take in money for what you do. Financially speaking, a job that gets taxed is better than no income and no tax. Ask a starving man whether he’d be willing to do a job and get some money, even if a small amount, or have no money and no food. Giving 12.5 million people jobs would essentially be the biggest tax deduction in history, as everyone’s finances would go from a net negative, to a net positive. Plus, with more people and more disposable income, the rich that Republicans love would get plenty of new customers for whatever they’re selling

The private sector may take a temporary hit as they wouldn’t have the amount of talent in the pool to be picky about their selections. That’s ok, they’ll get them back. With more people with money, suddenly the public is not shy about spending. That in turn creates a trickle UP effect ( :wink: ) where private enterprises would benefit from the increase in customers. Eventually, as money is made and spent, private companies will be able to grow and offer higher compensations than government work. The ones who are not averse to risk, the talented, the underpaid, the brilliant and the stupid will try their luck at more money with private companies. Not everyone’s suited to government work and its stability, bureaucracy, and unchanging tedium. I do no fear for one second my plan will destroy the private sector. Some industries may disappear or shrink, but others will take their place

Of course, since this is simply a plan to reinvigorate the economy, there should be an end date to the experiment. But why, you ask, if its working so well? Why not employ everyone? Well, its no secret that with the security of a government job comes some stifling in creativity. I’m not going to over-exaggerate it like some people is wont to do. Its not a total mind-numbing killer, it just forces you to take into consideration other people. If government took over pro-wrestling they’d probably ban punching. There’s no conflict, government doesn’t work that way, it wants things to run smoothly even if you have to follow a million regulations. Sometimes that’s stifling, but sometimes it makes sure that the sheep doesn’t get outvoted by the wolves and become lunch

I’m not going to say that the plan to end the experiment is to simply lay off everyone at a certain point. That would create the same problem we have now, only a few years down the line. People need certainty to take risks, to buy that house, to quit your job and start a door-to-door handjob service with the nest egg they’ve built from a few years of government work.

Plus, these government jobs won’t be the highest paying ones. Now I’m not saying that all 12.5 million people will be janitors. There will be a normal bell curve of skilled and unskilled jobs, as well as an even distribution of salaries. We’re not all going to be department managers, there’s going to be a lot of us just trudging along all day. Its not great money, but its good for new grads, people with little skill, and others who just need a paycheck. Eventually, as the economy grows, more and more people will leave their government job for greener pastures. We’ll probably have a lot more than the 2.5 million people working for the feds as the new standard, but I don’t anticipate every one of the 15 million people to remain government workers

Some unintended consequences, some big, some small, some unknown:

This will probably kill a lot of the leverage private companies have on their employees. If people know they can probably walk into an office and come out with a government job in the same afternoon, you probably will hear a lot more people telling their private company bosses to take this job and shove it. Would that really be so bad? To make sure private companies are as fair, equal, and paying their employees comparably to a government worker? I think that would be great

Quality will probably suffer, by how much I don’t know. When you can’t pick and choose the best and the brightest, you’ll probably get a lot of pond scum. But think about it this way: each on of those pond scum is at least contributing to the economy, buying pond scum feed, hiring pool boys to tend to their ponds, and buying pesticides to kill the bugs flying around the algae forming at the edge of the pond

And I don’t mean that nobody will get fired. Break rules, assault people, be lazy and don’t work, etc. will still be fire-able offenses. But I’ll leave it to others to make wild speculations that 12.5 million people will suddenly become sociopaths. I know government workers. Even back when the economy was good, they didn’t go around stealing lunches from refrigerators or taking 3 hour lunches just because they knew they could probably get hired somewhere else. People are not going t simply change their fundamental personalities just because they have some job security, its not going to happen. But then I was never a fan of hyperbole except when its funny

The country will be socialist? Yeah, ok, go back to your padded room now… :rolleyes:

In all honesty, this would probably be the death of the Republican party. I’ll try to fake some tears for those of you who care

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So that’s the plan. Hire everyone. Eliminate unemployment. Eliminate the debt ceiling. Borrow as much as it takes to pay these people and when the economy grows, reap the love and adulations. I know this will never pass as long as there are people naming themselves after an 18th century protest and pretending like defaulting is a good idea, but assuming the government is able to do this starting tomorrow, is there any reason why it wouldn’t fix the economy?

Really, comrade? I never would have guessed.

Do you believe lenders will just give you money out of the goodness of their hearts, with no expectation of being repaid? Or is this just one big Ponzi scheme, where the government services its debts using nothing but the funds of subsequent investors?

The government can’t just unilaterally abandon the debt limit and any hope of repaying its debtors and expect investors to reciprocate - not forever, anyway. Your proposal amounts to turning the US into the next Greece - and I mean the Greece that is currently collapsing under the weight of its own bloated greed.

You’re not an economic liberal, you’re a social democrat.

Riiiiight. So you want to create a bloated government work force on make-work projects with no clear idea of how they will be used productively. With all the usual government worker protections, etc. Why I do believe there was a system like this, it existed up to about 1990.

Staggeringly stupid idea, and I would say this is not a Social Democratic concept, this is essentially a tolerate-the-market socialism idea.

cough WPA / CCC cough

The country has been moaning about needing infrastructure work.

We usually see about 1 of these silly posts every 6 months. And being a liberal on this board probably puts you with about 90% of the membership (or at least, the poster-ship).

Maybe it’s a parody? Maybe we’re supposed to realize having the government employ huge numbers of people it’s the best economic strategy?

Perhaps. I guess if we want to turn the country into a worse-off version of Greece, it is a defensible strategy.

Personally, I think we should raise the minimum wage to $1,000,000/hour. Then we’d all be rich!

The government could hire several million people to do useful work such as infrastructure projects, and this would be a huge boost to the economy.

There are several other million more people that are unemployed temporarily and so do not need a job, make-work or otherwise, because they would be better off if they spent their time looking for a well-paying job.

For the other several million, though, the country would be better off if we just gave them 10,000 bucks a year or more without having to work. Because they wouldn’t then have to expend resources in going to work and the government wouldn’t have to expend resources in enabling them to do their useless job. We’d save resources by just handing out the money. Plus, in my idiosyncratic economic analysis, I consider not working to be an economic good in and of itself, so those people would be better off because they wouldn’t have to work. (In addition of course to the possibility that they could use the extra time off to look for work or educate themselves, which has a more mainstream economic benefit.)

I’m not saying we should give away that amount of money, we shouldn’t, but that would be better than expending resources in making them pretend to do useful work.

Isn’t this just another way of saying, “Let’s have a larger military?”

Even better yet, what if instead the government used the same amount of borrowed money to go around buying up houses people can’t sell. Then we could give them to the homeless! Two birds with one massively expensive stone.

You know, this plan could work if we added just one more detail. Upon hiring all of these new workers the government could levy a special income tax on them of, say, 130% (the first 100 percent to cover the expense of covering their payroll, the rest to cover the incidental expense of items like benefits).

The unemployment rate goes down. The debt ceiling isn’t affected. Everyone’s a winner!

Where will the money come from to do this? According to this:

So, let’s say that the average is $60k, since that’s a nice easy number. And let’s use the OPs 12.5 million workers hired figure. That works out to $750,000,000,000 in annual salary, and doesn’t include loaded costs (i.e. benefits) which could double that or more. On the books. Every year. So…where are we going to get an extra trillion or so dollars A YEAR for this wonderful plan??

Just curious…I’m sure the OP has a plan for that as well.

-XT

Borrow it!

All we have to do is ask and countries will lend us as much as we want.

Or tax the rich, this thread is simply a conclusion to the wealth redistribution thought process. All those new employees will spend which creates demand, gets multiplied, and multiplied again, and then I think it’s multiplied again, and creates more money!

With the added bonus that once there are no more people looking for jobs, it will be an employees market again, and those still in the private sector can start making more and more demands, that if refused means they’ll get a nice job with the government and a $10k salary bump (since median income is in around $50k now).

But on a more serious question, what happens if all these 12.5 million people unionize and want a 20% pay increase? Was a cost of living adjustment built into the plan? Or does inflation not exist in this bizzaro world.

YogSosoth, why don’t you make a list of all of the effects (positive and negative) you see of your plan over the next, say, 10 years.

:rolleyes: Typical ad hominem attack. Why don’t you tell me how you really feel?

Yes, as long as they have the full faith and credit of the US Government backing it up. You know, the thing that the Republicans are trying to destroy.

Be careful of using words you don’t understand. My plan would affect the private market, but would not attack it directly. People will flock to the items that the private industries will provide, and now with money to do buy stuff, private industry will be able to make a roaring comeback. Its only socialist if you’re so deep in your own lies that you believe any government control on anything is bad

That’s why I specifically said I’d expand the rosters of the existing departments. I didn’t say I’d create new ones. All the roles that the government does now will continue to be done by them. All the roles that the government stays out of right now will remain so, unless private industries can’t handle the sudden influx of people with disposable incomes and spontaneously combust. Don’t like how slow it is at the DMV or the post office? Well now there’s never a line! Hate the wait you have when you go get a birth certificate? Now there’s one teller for every customer! Its not all bad. Government, unless its necessary, won’t suddenly be making cars, opening massage parlors, or catering weddings, or doing any of the things private industry does right now

Why don’t you tell me why its not before you assume it is first?

QUOTE=Mr Smashy;14051366]Perhaps. I guess if we want to turn the country into a worse-off version of Greece, it is a defensible strategy.

Personally, I think we should raise the minimum wage to $1,000,000/hour. Then we’d all be rich!
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The catch, of course, is that prices go up. With government able to operate in a deficit, no price need go up on any services.

Here’s the math: Suppose we do this with 12.5 million people. And lets average their salaries out to a yearly sum of a decent $50000. If you want to use 60k, that’s fine, but it wouldn’t change the totals too much. Anyways, continuing on. The total cost for the year? $625 billion. Thats less than the $663 billion the US spent in defense last year. Less than the $700 billion spent on TARP by Bush, and less than the estimated $787 billion spent on the stimulus plan 2 years ago. So excuse me while I have a hearty laugh at those who thinks we can’t afford it :rolleyes:

Let’s talk tax cuts. Republicans always want them, and Democrats want them if necessary. By injecting a comparably small $625 billion into the economy, you don’t just throw money around like TARP. Each dollar goes to an actual person’s salary. But if you think of it as a tax cut, then basically you’re telling millions that they are getting a tax cut (credit) of $50000. Even the rightiest right that’s ever righted a right wouldn’t dream of giving that big of a tax cut on what is essentially a middle class earner. But here we’re not only giving them that money, but taking them out of unemployment and guaranteeing them a stable job. What’s not to like about that?

As for where we’re going to get this extra money? Through job and economic growth and the increase in tax revenue. You know, the same place we get all our money.

With low or no unemployment and guaranteed jobs, there’s no reason our economy would be as bad as we are now. Were we worried about and extra few trillions when Bush decided to wage 2 wars? No, because we had the money. You might as well ask where we got the money for TARP and the stimulus in back to back years. Does our military make money? Where does the money for them come from? Its disingenuous for you to assume we don’t have the money because as long as the Republicans don’t throw Americans into the shit pile and refuse to increase the debt ceiling, then we will continue to be able to generate consistent revenue. And as I said, with more stabiliy and wages, people will slowly move off the government roster and try to create their own wealth. One reason why communism didn’t work was because many people seem to have an innate to be better than his neighbor. Once we stabilize the economy, there’s no reason why we couldn’t experience a boom from all the new industries and markets people start up (that they can’t do now because they don’t have the financial stability to do so)

While I like Obama’s stimulus plan, I often wonder what he could have done had he not had the vitriolic opposition he’s had ever since he was elected into office. Its true that the government could and did hire people, but one problem with those jobs is that they are temporary. A person wouldn’t buy a house based on the fact that he’ll be repaving a highway for the next 6 months. But a guaranteed government job that pays you $50000 would get him to buy that house, or invest in a company, or whatever. And also, and I’m not sure if this is true or not but I’ve never seen it addressed, but wouldn’t it take considerably less people to build infrastructure nowadays than in the 50’s when Eisenhower was putting people to work? With modern machines, 1 man could probably do the job of 5. Laying down asphalt probably is twice as fast with half as much people. Anyone have stats on this?

No, its not just about the military. This is about every other service the government does.

And houses are nice, if they have furniture, utilities, and are taken care of. If a person’s homeless and jobless a free house would just be a place to sleep, it wouldn’t be an investment that will pay dividends later

I listed some. Why don’t you do it and we’ll see if they are valid?

20%? You think you can tone down your hyperbole for a second and try to act serious? That kind of stuff seems more in line with the management practices of private business than government, no matter how strong your union is.

Listen, government workers get small increases every year. While it may rankle the cockles of conservatives that they get pay raises for essentially just doing the same thing over and over and not based on merit, it is a built in plan to make sure that we don’t all fall on the bad side of inflation. These pay increases are like 3% or 4% tops, based on my experience. It amounts to a few hundred dollars per year per person, which, multiplied by 12.5 million, is still less than $10 billion (using an increase of $500 as the multiplier). $10 billion is nothing. NASA gets almost twice that. The program cost of the absolutely uselessly overkill F-22 Raptor is $65 billion. We lost $12 billion in cash in Iraq. So comparably, if unionized workers want a raise, it won’t be a big deal. And just to repeat, nobody’s going to demand a raise of 20%, you’re just making that up in order to try and prove a point

You haven’t listed any negative effects. Do you believe there won’t be any?

[QUOTE=YogSosoth]
Here’s the math: Suppose we do this with 12.5 million people. And lets average their salaries out to a yearly sum of a decent $50000. If you want to use 60k, that’s fine, but it wouldn’t change the totals too much. Anyways, continuing on. The total cost for the year? $625 billion. Thats less than the $663 billion the US spent in defense last year. Less than the $700 billion spent on TARP by Bush, and less than the estimated $787 billion spent on the stimulus plan 2 years ago. So excuse me while I have a hearty laugh at those who thinks we can’t afford it
[/QUOTE]

If you are going to roll your eyes, at least have the decency to know what the fuck you are talking about. TARP was a one time bail out…we don’t pay that every fucking year. If you hire 12.5 million people I presume you are going to keep them on for more than a single year, yes? Also, whether you use $50k or $60k a year (I picked $60k not at random but because that’s less than the CURRENT average federal employees salary…you are of course free to pay your new 12.5 million whatever you like) you still have to pay benefits which aren’t included in the annual average salary. Unless you were planning to bring in all those workers and simply many them hourly non-exempt employees without any benefits? No? They you have to add that cost as well. Loaded costs generally run to about double the salary, so for an employee making $60k/year their loaded costs would probably be in the ball park of $120k/year. I rounded even that off and gave you the benefit of the doubt and put the figure at a mere $1 trillion…that’s an increase in the budget of $1 trillion (at least) A FUCKING YEAR. Not a one time pay out, but a cost that you’ll have on your books forever after (unless you do some sort of massive lay off at some point), and one that will increase over time since I presume you will want to give all these good folks little things like cost of living increases and the like, yes?

That it’s pure fantasy and completely unworkable? Other than that it’s a great plan, except for all the other bad side effects it will have. Let me ask you something…if ALL of the Bush tax cuts were removed, how much do you estimate that would bring in to the federal government in additional revenue? Don’t worry about what that might or might not do to the economy…keep it simple. What’s the best case estimate on how much revenue it would bring in? Do you think that this would equal an additional $1 trillion PER YEAR?? If not, then where are you going to get the money from? I know…increase the taxes on The Rich™. That’s fine…how much would you have to increase to get from where getting rid of the Bush tax cuts and even the $1 trillion? $700 billion? $600 billion? $800 billion? How much?

Where would the economic growth come from? Do you think that the government would spur economic growth, even leaving aside your magical ways of getting an addition trillion dollars for the budget? How would the government spur economic growth exactly? How would these 12.5 million new federal workers spur growth?

Sort of begs the question, doesn’t it? If just hiring 12.5 million US workers would magically spur economic growth, why hasn’t anyone done that? Why haven’t they gotten the money from ‘the same place we get all the money’ ALREADY?

-XT

YogSosoth, I think you’re way, way off on your numbers. But before I spend hours researching numbers that’ll get immediately dismissed out of hand, I want some questions answered: (1) Who gets a job, and (2) how much do they get paid?

Who gets a job? Are there any age requirements? Education requirements? How about requirements on employment history? For example: does it matter if you’ve never held a job before? What if you haven’t been employed in years? Does it matter whether you voluntarily quit your last job, or whether you were fired?

How much do they get paid? You’ve already said you’re willing to pay $50k on average. How much does this vary? Does it vary with education level? With the type of degree you have? With age? Employment history?

Dang, I wish you had proposed this 10 years ago, unfortunately all that money has been borrowed and spent.