Could someone explain to me why people are not told they CAN’T do something in today’s society? “Sorry Bob, I don’t know why your shortcomings weren’t flagged during some point in your educational pursuits, but you’re just not fit for this type of work.” Why can’t that be said. It’s not mean or oppressive…simply the truth. How I miss the days of apprentices and masters. Now all you have to do is stumble through four years of college in a drunken haze to get a piece of paper that says you attended college, a piece of paper that most companies don’t even ask to see. Yea for me, I spent thousands of dollars on four years of generalized trivia. And I don’t even have to be good at what I “learned” to do. If trivia is taught to enough people, it becomes education. All college has become is a four-year game of Trivial Pursuit, where everyone learns the answers to the same banal questions, knowledege I might add that is unnecessary for survival, in the job market or otherwise. Heaven forbid we would be forced to revert to a post-technological society. Why? Cuz we were never learned nuttin in college. To bad that diploma is necessary for aspirations above manning the carry-out window.
I think what doggus is getting at is that the liberal arts degree (while expense and time-consuming) does little to prepare the student for the rigors of the working world.
However, for some reason, it is (usually) the standard qualification for entry-level positions in the working world. Unfortunately, the only fields where journeymen, apprentice/master learning relationships occur is in woodworking, ironworking, and the like.
Currently, I have my first job out of college. I would have been much better off having gotten hands-on marketing training over the course of my four year liberal arts education than sitting in Shakespeare 101.
So, to review, the liberal arts education I received leaves me with a pretty diploma on my wall, all you ever want to know about Shakespeare, and a ton of loans to pay off.
Oh, and thanks for the critical thinking skills. They come in handy when I’m making copies.
No. I found my liberal arts education quite useful, and in the course of doing my job, I frequently apply the theories I was taught in university.
I unquestionably benefitted from a liberal arts education, as would anyone - provided, of course, they actually expend some effort learning the material, as opposed to just cramming for tests or dropping out at the first sign of difficulty.
Hey, if you’re happy knowing as little as possible, good on you.
My life is too short for that. I want to know how things work, how things fit together, why things are as they are. I don’t care if I use that knowledge constantly. It’s the knowledge itself, and the concomitant understanding of my world, that makes me more than a drone.
I would suggest that on a message board ostensibly dedicated to fighting ignorance, the “why should I give a shit” attitude seems a bit out of place.
The point of contention is not “to try and get by knowing as little as possible.” I like to learn things. I like to discover. But college is not necessarily the only way to go about it. I can go to the library and learn. But as a prerequisite for admission into the employee pool, I think college does a shit job… especially for the money.
No. (Sorry for the brief answer, but it’s a close-ended question.)
I have to admit my psychology degree won’t prepare me for the job market, but it will prepare for graduate school. That, in turn, will prepare me for the job market. I changed to a liberal arts major with an idea of what I would do with the degree, so I am in a different boat than the liberal arts majors I know who enjoy what they’re studying but have no idea what they will do with it.
Again, if all you want is to make copies, you’re right–a liberal arts education does little to prepare you.
For the same reason a high school diploma was a “ticket to ride” thirty years ago. A bachelor’s degree (in theory, at least) provides a basic and rounded body of knowledge. It provides an opportunity to learn, but more importantly, it provides an opportunity to learn how to learn (and additionally, how to interact with people and bureaucracy). And it indicates an ability to achieve a long-term goal.
I’d bprobably e more likely to hire someone with a college degree for those reasons. (But not much more likely–in my field, I’m more concerned with experience and skill.)
A liberal arts education is great for making you into a knowledgeable, responsible, and enlightened citizen. But if you want a good job you’re probably better off going for a technical education. Luckily I got the best of both worlds. During my first two years of college I was undecided about my major so I took a bunch classes in the fields that interested me: psychology, sociology, linguistics, philosophy, history, film, art, and political science. I finally realized that I wasn’t going to make any money in such fascinating subjects so I became a computer science major. But I’m grateful for the general education that I managed to acquire even if it didn’t help me get a job. I’m a better person with a more complete understanding of the world and if I could go back and do it all over again I wouldn’t change a thing, despite the fact that it took me an extra year to graduate. Sometimes education should be viewed as an end in itself.
I’d like to see someone come right out of college with a great self-actualizing job. For those of you who did, I commend you. I went to college to make it easier for me to get a job. Period. If I wanted to learn about Romantic lit., I can go to the library! It just so happens that employers look for the degree.
Of course, I want to do more than make copies, but as you said:
You and everybody else. Why not get that “experience and skill” first-hand in college vs. learning trivia about Shakespeare. Do you know how much of a crutch “no experience” is coming fresh out of school? It about killed me.
A liberal education isn’t intended to train you in anything except problem solving. The same skills that applied to analyzing Joyce’s Ulysses will be useful in the real world job market.
The problems of a mere tech education are multitudinous. Tech ed will teach you how to do things, but not give you any of the bigger picture of why you should do things, or whether or not those things should even be done in the first place. So we get a gazillion computer programmers that think that just because it CAN be done, it SHOULD be done, just because it is a good hack. And the result, experiments in carrying TCP/IP packets by carrier pigeon, and remote application servers that can remotely control the brightness and contrast of your monitor by using your cel phone.
So my question… (again). **Why is this the standard in working world preparation if it’s nothing more than crossword puzzle preparation? **It does so little to prepare you!
And andros. Now you are just being difficult. Can you answer the above question?
Problem-solving skills in the workplace are specific (in large part) to that workplace; let alone college.
Surely you’d agree that the college experience is markedly different from the workplace experience? Apples and oranges, I say. Why not prepare me for the workplace specifically?
I don’t understand first why people assume that a college education is supposed to be some sort of job training, or more importantly, why people fresh out of college feel that they deserve a job with more complexity and responsibility than making copies. When you are 22 with little or no experience, regardless of your education you are useless.
I am 23, and am working my second job out of college. Fortunately I am a little less useless than I was last year. I have every reason to believe than in a few years more, should I wish to remain in the private sector rather than go back to school, I might actually become a productive, even useful member of society.
Acco40 - Andros has irked me before with his cryptic post style, so I sympathize with your frustration here. It’s very hard to argue with because he doesn’t explain himself much.
In this case though, I agree with him. Problem solving skills are not just for crossword puzzles. The ability to learn is more than just the ability to read. Also, a degree proves that you have some persistence, another valuable attribute. What is your career choice that you don’t think these skills are useful? Writing skills are useful in almost any career. I would be more likely to hire an engineer who took extra writing classes above and beyond what is required in an engineering degree. So few engineers can express their thoughts coherently. The ones who can are very valuable. I have worked with a number of different kinds of engineers. Most of them are so used to really poor documentation they make no effort to do better themselves. When they come accross good documentation, they act like it’s magic or like it’s plug and play software on the computer.
Most of the facts you learned in a liberal arts education are not useful in subsequent careers. The skills you learned ARE useful. Even if they are skills you had to some extent before you started college, college gave you the chance to practice and hone these skills.
Why do parents insist on sending their nearly moronic kids to college?
Why do colleges continue to accept these knuckle dragging mouth-breathers?
Well, the more kids the school can fit through the doors, the more money they make, so guess what? Admission standards go down, and mommy and daddy insist that Junior go to Freshwater State even though he has cat-cheese for brains. And, they are willing to sell the RV to buy him that erzatz diploma.
End results??
Freshwater State makes beaucoup bucks–
I have to sit in class listening to Junior and others like him whine and bitch about being forced to take humanities classes. (Who forced anyone? that’s what college is for!)
The intellect of the United States plunges to ever-scarier lows.
…but there is hope…
COME HEAR THE GOOD NEWS!!!
PARENTS, YOU DON’T HAVE TO SEND YOUR DUMB-A** KIDS TO UNIVERSITY!! They are not clever enough to get any use out of it anyway, and they bother everyone who actually has the capacity to read, write and think critically.
DRILL-PRESS OR PHONE ANSWERING SCHOOL MAY BE A BETTER SOLUTION!!!
(or the fall back for the REALLY dull ones… business school)