I am not sure I understand the forehead-slap at the end. Can you elaborate?
If they need CPR, they’re already “dead”. Can’t hurt them any worse.
Then what’s the point of even having trained nurses on staff? :dubious:
I think this article is a bit alarmist and inflammatory. The elderly woman was never dead at any time during the 911 call. It plainly states she died later that day at the hospital, but doesn’t say anything about the state she was found in by the EMT’s. I’m betting they found her alive, or she would have been DOA at the hospital. If she had really needed CPR and didn’t get it before the ambulance arrived, they wouldn’t have been able to bring her back.
Of course there’s nothing interesting to publish if the story was written like this:
An elderly woman at a nursing home passed out today while eating lunch. 911 was called and an ambulance transported her to a local hospital, where she later died.
That’s all, folks.
They handle things like medications, minor injuries, testing for diabetics, assistance with cpap, oxygen, etc.
Some callers are not willing to move a patient onto a hard surface because of a fear of harming the patient further. Usually the expressed fear is that the patient will hit his/her head.
I will not give you instructions to do CPR until I have verified that the patient needs it. No matter what we do it will not make the patient any deader, but it just might save their life.
So if such a worried caller attempts CPR at all, it is done with the patient in the bed. It is ineffective as the compressions simply move the bed springs rather than compress the patient’s chest.
Broken ribs are common with CPR and generally considered to be better than not doing CPR. A possible laceration or contusion to the head, or even a cracked skull, seems to still be better than not doing CPR.
It’s news to me that a 9-1-1 operator would even ask this, but then I’ve never called them for anything. (According to a movie coming out soon, you guys also hunt serial killers…)
Reported duplicate thread. This one was started six minutes too late!
A DNR means Do Not Resuscitate which means… no, you do NOT do CPR. Then again, if someone is DNR you don’t call 911, either.
Merged two topics about this.
What do you think a DNR prevents someone from doing, then? Using black magic to bring you back? No Weekend At Bernie’s stuff done with your body?
I’m an RN and my specialty is geriatrics. We take levels of intervention and DNR orders very seriously. Of course I also take “not doing CPR on someone who is alive” very seriously too.
In most places I have worked there is a policy of “No CPR on an unwittnessed code blue” or basically if I don’t see them drop I don’t do CPR. If they have a DNR in place, I don’t do CPR. I might call the hospital, even 911 for someone who is a DNR (we have levels of intervention from “nothing” to “full CPR and admission to ICU if warranted.” if they are at risk of say excessive internal bleeding from a fractured hip, or massive head injury, or respiratory distress without heart stopage. DNR does NOT mean Do Nothing; Relax!
This story smellys funny all over. Like others have said it seems to be a senstionalistic and incomplete account. Nurses who work in long term care, assisted living, residential, whatever you call it often get portrayed as “unskilled”, or “not good enough” to cut it in"a real hospital" No. We just use different skills than someone in ICU does. I get paid the same if I am working in ER or long term care, I like to know my people as people, learn about their families, spend time talking to these wonderful people. I have less specialized training than some ICU nurses have, but I am not any less of a Registered Nurse.
This sounds like a stroke to me but I have no medical background.
If the person was still breathing and had a pulse but was breathing shallowly wouldn’t the prudent thing to do is test for o2 levels and administer oxygen if needed? I’m sure they had an o2 meter there and it’s non-invasive.
This sounds like another story without the facts.
My impression, from doing my medical directive, is that DNR is for extraordinary measures. Do EMTs check for DNR orders when giving CPR?
In this case not giving CPR seemed to be the general policy, and not specific to any patient.
My mom’s DNR was not just for CPR, it also forbade intubation/respirator/ventilator by her choice. It’s basically a specific type of medical directive.
Depends on the jurisdiction. It used to be that if you called 911 and they sent EMT’s they were allowed to follow a DNR and would be legally forced to try to revive the person, meaning they had to do CPR until the patient arrived at the hospital and was turned over to a doctor who then said, “OK, it’s a DNR, stop doing this.”
Nowadays, in some places EMT’s are allowed to honor a DNR and will ask or check for one.
Indeed, and that’s the creepy thing here. Some elderly people want extra-ordinary measures. There is no report of this elderly patient/resident having a DNR. And, frankly, company policies that dictate you do nothing in a medical emergency are asinine. I expect, though, that this attendent will be made the fall guy for this and the people responsible for this policy will suffer no consequences.
The played the 911 tape on the news last night. The 911 dispatcher was desperately trying to get the caller to pass the phone to somebody else (it sounded like someone specific who was not an employee). She kept saying things like “I can understand if your boss does not want you performing CPR, but please hand the phone to a passerby so that this woman does not die.”
In other words, it sounds like it goes beyond “I won’t perform CPR” to “I won’t let anyone else perform CPR, either.” The transcript they played did not include a reference of either party being aware of the difficulties of performing CPR on the elderly.
My CPR instructor told us: “If you hear a cracking sound while performing CPR, that’s their ribs breaking. Don’t worry about it they’re dead anyways”
My mother recently had a talk with the doctor about my 94 year old grandmother at her facility regarding CPR. Basically the doctor said she could be in much worse shape from the CPR after if they did bring her back at her age.
As for the story at hand our litigious society I’m sure has something to do with it.
When I took my training, I was also told that broken ribs could result from CPR, and it was especially a sensitive procedure with younger and older individuals, for similar reasons. However, I was also told that we were covered under good samaritan law, though it does vary by state.
I’m certainly not an expert, though.
So,
http://gma.yahoo.com/staff-not-cpr-facility-says-185007742--abc-news-topstories.html
it turns out she wasn’t a nurse, and is working in a facility that is not licensed to provide medical care.
Pesky details
The woman on the phone clearly said (1:15) “I am a nurse” so I can’t fault anyone for jumping to the conclusion that she was, in fact, a nurse.
And good samaritan laws cover the “not licensed to provide medical care” thing. My kids’ daycare center was not licensed to provide medical care, but everyone who worked there was certified in CPR and prepared to use it if needed.
Pesky real world.