There is the story online somewhere too about the Tesla used as a taxi between LA and Vegas, which had about 180,000 miles on it before it needed a new battery pack. (IIRC, replaced under warranty due to a cell failure). My Tesla after 3 years has 40,000km on it (about 25,000 miles). At this rate, when it hits 150,000 miles it will be the longest I’ve owned a car.
Another potion I think we’ll see for chargers is a row of “free” L2 chargers in a parking lot for a mall or restaurant. L2 are the chargers that (like the one in my garage) take a few hours to charge the vehicle. 40A 240V, so say about 8kWh adds about 57km/hr (34 miles) Fast chargers (L3) can fully charge a vehicle in half an hour, give or take. But places that want to entice customers to visit, like malls, can offer a charge that will maybe add back the mileage it took to get there, all while the customer shops or dines.
I saw reports of people using their powerwall during serious outages, suggesting that would power their house for 2 or 3 days. i assume they were using the microwave rather that hte electric stove to achieve that longevity, and usually extended power outages due to storms don’t involve running the AC flat out with the battery backup.
A Powerwall IIRC is about 1/4 or less the capacity of a Tesla vehicle. Again, with the transfer switch, one presumes the next generation of equipment will have the smarts to manage back-to-grid connectivity, plus perhaps take advantage of low off-peak rates to charge the battery system when solar is not enough. But then, it is rare when an EV needs to be fully charged 0 to 100% overnight. Typically I’m charging 100km to 200km after a busy day and maybe 50 to 100km normally. one powerwall would give me 100km or so, and many larger homes it’s recommended to have two units.
But again, to return to the OP’s question, whatever you do manage to put up in terms of solar is that much less carbon burned, even if it just reduces the amount the power company burns at their efficient plants.
They’re not mainstream because they keep getting blown up by people? That’s hardly a logical argument. All that video shows is that one person was really, really unhappy.
I thought his point was that they aren’t mainstream because the batteries cost too much…so, because of that, the dude in the video blew it up (instead of selling it for some odd reason…or something). Anyway, the video was TL/DW but that’s what I got out of his post.
Personally, I think they aren’t mainstream because they still cost more than a comparable ICE car with fewer capabilities and, currently, less support infrastructure. That seems to be changing, but, really, until there is a large secondary market for all EC vehicles they aren’t going to be ‘mainstream’, since most people can’t afford the higher-performing ones at the low end, which is still expensive to many, don’t have the same level of capabilities or performance.
Myself, I think my next vehicle will be an all EC, but I want something that does at least 400 miles on a charge and recharge stations available along the routes I’m most likely to drive often and a cost less than $50K. Once most of that is available I’ll be buying one. Would be a bonus if I could get a used one, as normally I never buy new, but I’d say if I wait for that I’ll be too old to drive (though, perhaps the self driving stuff will be rolling out by that point so it will be moot).
Found internal imbalance in HV battery due to consistent supercharging to 100% from a low state of charge (SOC) without any rest periods in between. HV battery has been approved to be replaced. Also recommend that customer does not Supercharge on a regular basis and does not charge to 100% on a regular basis. We also recommend that the customer use scheduled charging to start charge 3 hours after end of drive at low SOC.
Normally, Tesla owners “supercharge” (fill’er up at high power) only when going on trips, and typically do slow charging at home. These guys would supercharge several times a day going back and forth to Vegas, and would do so when the battery was still warmer from highway driving. Tesla also suggests keeping the battery between 20% and 80% except when going on road trips where the range is needed.
And more interestingly, this is based on battery tech from 2015. Tesla has refined the batteries and the cell management processes since then, and with everyone jumping on the battery bandwagon, presumably there will be further improvements in the years to come.
By comparison, my dad’s Jaguar was a junker with less than 300,000 miles - and it took him 11 years on two continents to get there. My 2000 BMW needed thousands of dollars in repairs including a new transmission over 10 years and it was not very complex.
Apparently the Finnish guy who blew up his car did so after the car developed problems very early. From the Gizmodo article,
According to Katainen, his Model S ran “excellent” for the first 932 miles (1,500 kilometers) after he bought it, but then the error codes started to appear. He sent his car to a Tesla dealer’s repair shop, where it remained for about a month, and was told they couldn’t do anything for his car. His only option would be to replace the entire battery, which would cost more than $22,600, and he would have to ask Tesla permission to carry out the repair.
That sounds like it developed problems after less than a thousand miles; I’m not sure why the need for the battery replacement wasn’t considered a warranty issue. His situation may be rare.
It sounds to me like the one guy he talked to at the repair shop didn’t know how to enter something in the system as being under warranty, and rather than talk to someone else about a tens-of-thousands-of-dollars issue, he immediately jumped to the absurd endpoint.
I agree that something is missing from coverage of his story; every site links to the YouTube video of the explosion but doesn’t dig into why a $20,000 repair was necessary so soon into the car’s history. And why was the video only released now? Did it take from 2013 until 2021 for him to accumulate 1500km, after which the issue arose? Or did he blow it up in 2013 or 2014?
I don’t think we’re going to learn anything useful about the logistics of electric cars from some guy who blew his up with dynamite for a publicity stunt.
I don’t see much here about the actual amount of power required to charge a vehicle and how much that will cost you. My truck, just for a daily commute, costs me about $15/day in gas; more if I want to buy groceries or go anywhere other than work. Going by various websites, which only seem to show small electric car charging & power consumption rates, I’ll be paying $7.00 per day to charge. That’s sort of nice on the surface but is comparing a small car in US summer time to a medium size truck in Northern Alberta; we’re sitting at -26C right now. I’d be using closer to $10/day I imagine, and that’s assuming no change in rates for increased electric demand or upgrades in infrastructure to the distribution system or in-house. For comparison my neighborhood is in the process of upgrading our sewage lines. That’s just a mere $63,000 per house. Big system upgrades are expensive.
My entire house only uses $4/day of electricity right now. I see all the websites using math for the kWh rate you pay; say 10 cents, and suggesting that it’s even cheaper at night. Well, there is no cheaper overnight rate where I am, and if you look at your electric bill you’ll see the kWh rate is only a fraction of what you actually pay. In my case when you add in the delivery, distribution, transmission, administration charges (most based on the meter reading), plus various riders and taxes I’m actually paying over 37cents/kWh despite my “rate” being 10.6 cent/kWh.
Charging at home would double or triple my electric bill (again assuming no upgrades required). If charging stations in town are provided I can’t see them being cheap; nobody’s going to be handing out free power to charge your vehicle - that’s the equivalent to handing out a free full 5 gallon jerry can to everyone who parks in a lot every day of the month.
I’ve calculated 4 to 5 cents per mile to charge my EV. I haven’t noticed a change in my electric bill since getting two EVs, but our bill was already quite high and variable.
There’s a lot more to consider than what you have mentioned;
What kind of truck do you have?? $15/day at current prices indicates you are using about 12 liters of gas per day. For an F-150, that would be about 100 km per day, correct?
If you replaced that with an F-150 Lightning, driving 100 km will use up about 30kWh. And you would indeed be around $7 for a charge. But in something like an electric sedan or CUV (if you don’t need a truck), will burn more like 15 kWh per 100km, so it would charge for $3.50.
Neither of those are small savings. $8 per day savings in energy swapping truck for truck is $240/mo. If you could get by with a crossover type vehicle, you could save $360/mo or so.
Then there is service and repairs. If you get your truck serviced on recommended intervals, you’ll need service 2-3 times per year. An electric F-150 won’t need that, or nearly as much service. The only service the electric motors need is a coolant change every 150,000 km.
Now, consider that with the electric truck you don’t have a transfer case, gas engine, transmission, differentials… all of which require regular service and can fail.
Replacing a transmission can cost you $5,000-$8,000. A new transfer case will probably cost you $4,000. Replacing a diff can cost $3,000. If you need a new engine it will cost you $6,000-$10,000, depending on model. My brother replaced the motor in his Chevy diesel truck, and it was $12,000.
In an electric truck none of that exists. Electric motors tend to run forever. There are still electric motors around that have been in use since the 1800’s. No oil changes, no transmission or diff fluids to worry about. Brake service should be about half the cost because of regen braking which doesn’t wear down brake shoes and calipers. What’s the value of your time each time you have to get your truck serviced?
With electric it’s important to consider total lifetime costs, because the difference between the two is substantial. The biggest one, however, is depreciation and that’s a bit of an unknown at this point. The value of a used electric will likely come down to the condition of the battery, as it’s the only real consumable in the vehicle. On the other hand, an old truck probably has many things nearing replacement, so it’s not easy to keep running and the value plummets to near zero. A ten year old electric vehicle with a half-life battery has probably only lost $5,000 or so in battery value (or $10,000 if a tesla truly costs $20,000 to replace the battery).
The only electrics that have been around long enough to have a decent used market going back 5 years are Teslas. So I looked in Auto trader, and found a used 2021 Tesla Model 3 standard range with 3100 miles on it for for $65,900. I found an equivalent 2018 Model 3 Standard Range with 61,000 km for $56,800. That’s less than 20% depreciation in 3 years - about half the average of a similar gas vehicle, which probably reflects the lower maintenance cost of an aging electric vehicle.
This type of lifetime wear reminds me of small airplanes which are very simple mechanically except for the engine, and therefore the value of an old plane is heavily determined by the time left on the engine. A 1975 Cessna 172 with a freshly rebuilt engine can be worth more than a 1995 Cessna 172 with an engine nearing its time between overhaul.
So it’s possible that an electric car that’s 10 years old but with a new battery may be nearly as valuable as a new one. We will have to wait and see.
On the other hand, electric cars are improving rapidly, so today’s cars may depreciate fast if in 5 years we have new battery tech and other features that make today’s cars look like dinosaurs. So that’s a bit of a crap shoot there. If I wanted an electric car today I’d probably lease one. The good news is if they hold their value better than gas cars they should be much cheaper to lease.
The fixed charges don’t change, so you need to look at only the per-kWh rate and the variable charges like delivery fees. So the more power you use, the lower the price per kWh as the fixed charges become a smaller percentage.
The easiest way to look at it is to use kWh per 100 kilometers, as per Transport Canada ratings.
Small EVs and CUVs are around 15 kWh per 100km. Big utility vehicles and trucks are around 30.
At 20,000 km per year then, that’s 3,000 kWh for a small car, and 6,000 for a truck.
So… at $.20 per kWh, that’s $600/year in electricity for a small car, and $1200 for a truck. Correct those amounts for whatever you are paying.
Now, a typical small gas car gets maybe 8L per 100km, and a small truck around 12. So that’s 1600L of gas for a small car, and 2400L for the truck. Gas is about $1.40/L right now, that’s $2240 for the small car, and $3360 for the truck. So you are saving $1640 per year for a small car, and $2160 per year for your truck.
If you double the cost of electricity you still save over $1,000 per year for the small vehicle and the truck. But bear in mind that our government intends to increase carbon taxes every year, and if they follow through gas will be over $2.00/L in a few years.
Those are the numbers per 20,000 km. If you drive 100 km per day, you’re at more like 35,000 per year. Multiply the savings accordingly.
Now consider the costs of three services per year of the gas vehicle, vs maybe one cheap service for the electric. And the time saved never having to stop at a gas station again.
I have the tesla wall charger. It can be set to provide up to 100A but i have it on a 50A circuit. Code says, continuous current should not exceed 80% of the circuit/breaker rating, so the max I can charge is 40A.
40A at 240V (household power) is a bit less than 8kW. An hour of charging at that rate adds 57km (34mi) to a Model 3. Here, electricity is a bit less than 9¢ per kWh, so 100km or 62 miles costs about $1.25 or about $US 1.00 give or take. So if your gas costs $US 2.50, for the same money I can get 150 miles. Maybe half that in winter stop-and-go driving.
Also, fast chargers add a premium to charging costs (a 450V 150kW device tends to be expensive.) But generally, it will be less than gasoline for the same distance.
The other important point is that an internal combustion engine is a Rube Goldberg gizmo. Maybe less since electronic ignition and fuel injection replaced points and carburetors, but still… There’s fuel injectors, fuel pump, pistons sliding along metal cylinders, crankshaft bearings, spark plugs, water pump and radiator, cooling fan, oil pump and oil filter, alternator, automatic transmission, valves, camshaft(s) and timing chain, exhaust system, catalytic converter, muffler - a huge number of devices to make the engine work properly. Plus, the whole thing heats up to combustion temperatures and back down again every trip.
By comparison, an EV is mechanically incredibly simple. yes, a Tesla has a cooling system to regulate the battery heat, but it does not get anywhere near as hot as something burning fuel. maintenance, other than steering and suspension, is virtually nil.
I know from experience, a new transmission for a 6 year old BMW is $5000 or so.
My impression based on the stated timeline is the guy in Finland let the car sit for years (how else do you get 1,000 miles on a 8 year old car?). Anyone who has played with batteries knows letting something sit for years without regular charging and likely the battery will not hold a charge - and after that long, it’s no longer under warranty. The apocryphal classic car, left in a barn for decades… if you do that to an EV it probably will need a new battery pack. (The battery in my old Macbook Air started bulging after a year and a half of neglect)
Add fewer brake pad replacements to the lower maintenance of electric cars - the fact that they use regenerative braking means that the motors (working as a generator) are doing most of the braking with the pads only being used if you brake really hard, so brake pads can last 3-4x as long.
Yes, we had a 10-year-old Toyota hybrid and the brakes never needed replacing. My BMW needed new brakes after 5 years. Toyota hybrids use regen unless you brake really hard.
Using your car battery to buffer your house and the grid sounds cool in practice, but how much additional wear and tear are these discharge cycles going to put on the battery?
An Electric F150 range extender is an ICE engine, so leaving one running to power your house is a bad idea if it’s where most people park their cars, in a garage.
Also, supposedly we’re trying to de-carbonize home heating too, which means an electric heat pump probably supplemented by electric resistance heating. On a cold zero degree night I’m going to want my car fully charged the next day due to the loss of range using the heat when it’s that cold. And I’m going to want my house a nice toasty warm 73 degrees, just like during the day when it’s warmer outside. Is the grid going to be able to handle this new peak demand at night.
Depends upon whether it really is a peak. Demand will increase at night, but whether it reaches the level of the existing peaks is another matter. Early evening peaks include cooking, lighting, household activities, as well as heating. Unless charging your car requires more power than the kitchen whilst cooking a meal, the answer is probably “yes”.
There are always going to be issues managing energy needs for very cold areas. Most of the planet isn’t so beset with such problems, so overall, most of us won’t have much in the way of problems. It still may be that the cheapest solution for colder areas to upgrade electrical distribution infrastructure. Or it may be simpler to leave things the way they are and retain a legacy ICE capability. Whether in 20 years that represents enough of a market for ICE based vehicles is a different question.
Another factor to ease the burden on the electrical utilities of lots of EVs charging at night, is to let the utility control exactly when the cars charge.
Right now, through my electric utility, I’m subscribed to a company called EV Pulse, which is able to delay my car’s charging. All I care about is that the car is ready at 7:30 am. If it needs four hours of charging, I don’t care if that starts at 7pm (when rates drop), 1am, or 3:30am.
Wind is strong tonight? Let everyone charge when the rates drop. Wind is low? Delay some charging until the earlier ones finish to spread out the load.
That I think is a bigger problem than EV charging. To go “carbon neutral” my biggest challenge is going to be replacing a natural gas furnace with electric. In Canada, that means a much higher amount of electricity around the clock compared to EV charging. That the electrical grid is certainly not ready for.
Hmmm, I’ve learned a surprising amount on EV vehicles that I wasn’t expecting. After checking a few other websites, I still might be a decade or so away from getting one. I’ve always kept my costs down by buying decent quality used; the most I’ve ever spent is $10,000 for my most recent truck (a 2008 sierra), and I’ve done the simple routine maintenance myself, keeping the full-service $110 oil change at Jiffy lube down to $35 for just the Walmart oil and filter and my time. I’ve yet to take this truck in for anything else yet, but admit I’m due for about $1,200 worth of new tires.
I’ve got to admit the fueling and maintenance do seem better for EV. Now it’s just waiting for the popularity and used market to become more desirable (I checked Autotrader as well and found “0” for sale in my area (which isn’t unexpected)). But it sounds like used EVs probably won’t get cheap like gas vehicles, nor offer a do-it-yourselfer the costs savings they used to have since the technology is new and there’s almost nothing to do/save on yourself.
I do have some experience with all-electric houses. In 2008 I moved an old house onto a bare lot and installed a earth to air heat pump (geothermal heating) as well as on-demand electric water heater; I was basically carbon-free for 12 years. I had to set up a 200-Amp service. Emissions are one thing, but the costs for me, well, probably weren’t worth it, at least for the time I was there. If carbon based fuels keep getting more expensive and electric stays the same, then it would have been. But from 2008 - 2020 natural gas was much cheaper per unit of energy than electric, so in a really good year I might have matched but in most years I payed more using electric.
I found the value of the heating system and geothermal wells already being in place didn’t really add anything to the final selling price of the house. A smaller old house in a sparsely populated area was still just not very valuable, despite the heating system. The new owners probably got a good deal; pretty low price for a house that will cost less and less to heat going by the current trends. They found themselves on the better side of the trend; I paid the high up-front costs of a new system and paid a premium to run on expensive power while carbon-based power was cheap. Then just as carbon-based power starts getting more expensive I have to sell, so they get to shrug at the 12-year-old system (ain’t new anymore) and point out all the other typical flaws that bring the price down to just average.
Overall, I saved a ton of money buying a cheap bare lot and moving an existing house onto a new foundation and doing most of the associated construction myself. And I invested a ton of money on a new green energy system and starting to use it ahead of the trend. Overall, I probably broke even or lost a little money. It was a good learning experience while I was young and mostly free. Now, I’m older, have a family, and can’t afford to dabble or gamble on new tech.
Yes a vehicle is 1/10 the cost of a house… but I’ll let the next generation spend their money, learn their lessons, and start to stabilize the market & costs before I commit to another big leap. I’d rather be the grey-head who wisely bought my previous house than the brown-head who optimistically built it.