I now have two 110V wires, a neutral (not used) and a ground wire going to a lake lake yard sprinkler 220V pump. I would like to install a 110V GFI outlet near the pump. I don’t wish to run another line for it is underground and would be a major job.
My plans are to use one of the 110V wires and the neutral wire. At the present the sprinkler timer relay that starts/stops the pump breaks both 110V lines. I plan to bypass the relay with one line so I will have a hot wire at the pump when the pump is off.
Probably not up to code but does anyone see a problem?
The only real problem may be that the pump will then try to run, albeit at low rpm. You could end up damaging the motor. How is it that the pump operates on single phase 220 without the neutral? Is there a grounding conductor present?
I would suggest installing a junction box before the relay (electrically), breaking one or both of your 110 lines and making the appropriate splices therein. Make sure the box is accessible when you’re finished installing it. If this is outdoors, you can purchase water-tight or resistant boxes.
The only real problem may be that the pump will then try to run
How could it run, one line will be open? There would be no complete circuit.
*How is it that the pump operates on single phase 220 without the neutral? *
Pump designed to be run as a 220 = 2 x 110 lines.
Or as a 110 = 1 x 110 line and 1 neutral.
Is there a grounding conductor present?*
Yes, as I said in my post.
*I would suggest installing a junction box before the relay (electrically), breaking one or both of your 110 lines *
If I broke both 110 lines before the relay the pump couldn’t run.
I nominate this original post for least informative of the week.
When you say you have two 110 v lines, aren’t you really saying you have 220 v service? That would be 220 between the two hot wires and 110 to ground from either hot line (but out of phase).
If thats the case, what’s the big deal? Tap off one of the 110 wires before the relay, bury it and do it right. Having an uninterrupted service to an outdoor electrical installation seems to me to be very very poor judgement and totally in violation of code.
Gee whiz. The signal to noise ratio in GQ must be at an all-time high.
To answer the OP…
I did something almost identical to what you’re planning to do. When I installed central AC in our home, I also installed a 120 VAC receptacle on a post next to the compressor. The compressor runs on 240 VAC (no neutral).
I had to run 4-conductors: hot 1, hot 2, neutral, and ground. I ran 6-AWG wire because the distance was very long. The compressor used hot 1, hot 2, and ground. The 120 VAC receptacle used hot 1, neutral, and ground. It works great.
So here’s what you need to do:
You should have 4-conductors running to the outdoor setup: hot 1, hot 2, neutral, and ground. All four conductors should first go into an outdoor-rated disconnect box. For my application I used a 240 VAC/60 amp, 2-pole Square D box. The box can accommodate two big fuses (one for Hot 1, one for Hot 2). Hot 1 and Hot 2 on the incoming supply line should go to one side of the 2-pole disconnect switch. Hot 1 and Hot 2 for the pump should be connected to the other side of the 2-pole disconnect switch. (Note again that the box incorporates an fuse for each leg.)
The ground wire should connect to a bus bar mounted to the inside of the box. The pump’s ground wire should also connect to this bus.
Mount your receptacle in a separate box, then run a cable between the disconnect box and receptacle box. The cable should contain three conductors (14 or 12 AWG), and it should be run in water-tight conduit. The receptacle’s ground wire should be connected to the bus bar. The receptacle’s neutral wire should be connected to the incoming supply line’s neutral wire. (The neutral should not connect to the bus bar.) The receptacle’s hot should connect to Hot 1 or Hot 2 (it doesn’t matter).
But there are three more things:
There should be an in-line fuse on the receptacle’s hot line. If the receptacle is a 20 amp circuit (12 AWG + 20 amp GFI outlet), then install a 20 amp fuse somewhere in-line with the receptacle’s hot wire. If the receptacle is a 15 amp circuit (14 AWG + 15 amp GFI outlet), then install a 15 amp fuse somewhere in-line with the receptacle’s hot wire.
There is no reason run the receptacle’s hot wire through two fuses (the 15 or 20 amp in line fuse and one of the big fuses for the pump). Therefore you should connect the receptacle’s hot wire directly to the lug for the incoming supply line.
Make sure the circuit breakers back at the main panel in the house, and the wiring between this panel and the outdoor disconnect panel, are rated to carry the full pump current + 15 amps (or 20 amps) for the receptacle.
If the relay is at the pump, then do as I described above, but tap the outlet into the hot wire before the relay.
But reading the OP again, I think I see what your problem is… you would like to tap into one of the hot wires at a pump that is located downstream from a 2-pole relay. Is this correct?
So your idea is to turn the pump on and off by switching only one leg instead of two. That way, you always have a hot wire at the pump.
Hmmmm.
It would certainly work. But I’m not sure if it would meet code. Perhaps a licensed electrician could chime in.
Until then…
When a 240 VAC device is turned on or off, I believe both legs must be actuated simultaneously. I know this is certainly true for 240 VAC disconnect boxes, which incorporate 2-pole switches and a fuse for each leg. There must be a guarantee that flipping the switch on the disconnect box to the “off” position completely kills the load.
But… a controller does not necessarily need to control both legs. I have seen schematics of ovens w/ 240 VAC heaters that are controlled on one leg only (using a solid state relay).
So the question is, do the relays constitute an on-off switch or a controller? If the former, then you cannot bypass the relay. If the latter, then I’m not sure.
The only problem that I have with your answer Crafter_Man is that you’re now using a branch service line and disconnecting means as a sub panel.
Installing inline overcurrent protection for the receptacle isn’t the main concern, it’s the 12 or 14 AWG tap from the larger gauge branch feeder to that 15 or 20A fuse which will only be protected from overcurrent by the branch breaker or fuses in the panelboard.
The truly compliant way to do this job is to install a small type 3R sub-panel with two breakers: one for the existing pump, and another for the receptacle. Also, ensure that in addition to GFCI protection the receptacle has a bubble style cover to protect a cord cap from rain, and that appropriate distances of separation exist from pools, hot tubs, spas, etc.
Off the top of my head, at least 6 different Code articles come to mind.
The relay is in my shop at the house. I have a junction box right under the timer… easy access to jumper one side of the relay.
You are 100 % correct, you understood my question.
I think I will install a 20 amp breaker upstream of the of the GFI outlet just to be on the safe side. I have a junction box inside the little pump house that makes easy access.
The pump lines are already protected at the main breaker box.
Yes, the pump is wired just like your central AC compressor.
I had planned to install an outlet… just like you did.
My **only ** concern was starting/stopping the pump with only one line. I really couldn’t see a problem for when one leg is open the 220 circuit is not complete. And now you also have agreed there would be no problem.
**Crafter_Man, thanks ** for the answer to my question. We need more folks like you on this forum.
If I understand correctly, each leg of the pump is on a 30 amp circuit breaker. What is the maximum current the pump pulls? (This usually occurs at start up, BTW.) If you install a 15 amp outlet, and you plug an appliance into the outlet that’s pulling 15 amps, then that only leaves 15 amps for the pump. If the pump pulls more than 15 amps the breaker will trip.
While bypassing one leg of the relay will work, I’m not sure if it’s “code.” If you ask people whether or not it’s code, most of them will say “don’t do it.” But I would suspect most of them would say this because it’s the “safe and conservative” answer. What I’d like to know is if controlling off one leg is a technical violation of code.
No problem… remember this is a yard sprinkler pump… the outlet would never be used when the pump is running. The pump is rated at 50 GPM and it gets mighty wet in that area.
I need the outlet to run a grass edger… of course on a day that I don’t water the grass.
Here’s my take on why I still say don’t do it. I’m sure olefin will never have a problem since he knows how this is wired. However, let’s say he dies tomorrow and the property goes into someone elses hands. Or he sells the place and the buyer says “That’s a great sprinkler system.” Is he going to say “Yeah, except it’s not wired to code”?
Then, down the road, someone want to work on the pump. He makes sure the relay won’t actuate and gets into the pump - and finds himself with a hot 110v line in a wet yard.
Sure you can do this, but would you install a lighting circuit with the ground switched instead of the hot side? This installation would be equivalent.
If the person that works on the pump without throwing the breaker is that dumb he has no business working on the pump. For he sure wouldn’t know how to fix the pump. Also if he’s that dumb he will probably kill myself some other way.
.
One of the purposes of the electrical code is to prevent unexpected dangers, no? And this setup could have unexpected (to the next guy) dangers. Perhaps it would be wise to put a “disconnect at panel” type note where it could be seen by someone trying to disable the relay.
.
As to whether he will kill yourself some other way, well… If you’re anything like me, probably.
I put in the pump, piping, timer, sprinkler system and did all the wiring 10 years ago. :rolleyes:
