Elementary matters

In My Humble Opinion
1

As you all may or may not know, I’m a day care teacher. As a few colleagues were drawing kid’s names w/ dots (for them to later trace over), I noted a few differences in the ways we write our letters. Debate ensued.

The primary stance I take is that there is no ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ way to write letters. It’s either intelligible or not, that’s the only thing that matters. They argued that there’s certainly a right way. They trumped their BAs in Education, but I called them on a faulty appeal-to-authority.

The second stance, when I couldn’t make ground on the first, was to say that my way was ‘right’.
The debates:
me- lowercase e is written w/ the straight line on the middle dotted line.
them- e is written w/ the top of the arc on the dotted line

me and one- Capital M has the middle dip going down to the dotted line. Same for middle of W.
other- M’s dip is extended down to the bottom line. Same for middle of W.

me- a p, b, d, q are made w/o picking up the pen, requiring you to retrace part of the letter.
them- You make the bubbles, then pick up the pen and write a line. No retrace.
Now I was unable to quickly find some web references proving my points and lost on all accounts. Thing is, I can’t possibly be misremembering all those kindergarten/1st grade worksheets. I could be wrong on the e, M, and W but not on the retrace!! Dopers, what say you? Has handwriting changed in the past decades, like I charged? Am I crazy? How did you learn to write it?

I don’t care how you write now. I want to know how you were taught it, school-style.

2

FWIW, I agree with you on all but the e.

3

I agree with Them on the e and with you on the retrace. The M and the W can go either way.

4

I disagree with you on the “e”. The others could go either way.

5

IME, and having seen how my mother and all her friends have taught grades K-2 all my life, I would say that the following is pretty much standard;

Assuming writing paper that looks like this;

M, W: the middle lines for M and W go all the way to the bottom and top, respectively (like the W in the default SDMB font). Shortening the centre of these letters (to have it reach the middle line only) is a habit often acquired after the child learns cursive forms, though this is highly variable by teacher.

e: the entire letter stays below the dotted line. This is true of all lower case letters, except for the ones with extensions - b d f g h i j k l p q t y. The extensions should go either to the top solid line, or down to the next dotted line (assuming there is no extra space between “lines” as you get on some practise sheets. The dots on i and j should be mid-way between the dotted and top solid lines.

b, d, g, p, q: there is indeed a “rewrite” on the “stems” of these letters, and they are written without lifting pencil from paper. Teaching aids that show arrows to indicate how to form the letters will, in the case of g for example, start at the top right, draw left around the top to make the circle, coming back to just above where you started (hence that little “serif” thingy at the top of the stem) and then down and to the left for the stem/tail. I’ll WAG that those who think the letters are formed by drawing a circle, then the stem, are female and that they developed this habit as preteens/teenagers to make their writing look different than other people’s. I call it “bubble writing”, my sister does it, and I hate the look of it hehehehe

Of course, in the long run, there is no “right” and “wrong” way to do it, but I’m pretty certain that the teaching aids, workbooks, and general method (in order to be consistent year to year and teacher to teacher) is like this, at least in the schools where I grew up.

http://bksschoolhouse.com/shop.php?pid=13659

That classroom border shows several of the letters in question, and they are exactly how I first learned them. I don’t, of course, write that way anymore, though!

6

Well, many of us were taught to write with the idea that there IS one right way. I believe I recall reading about someone who can analyze, by your handwriting, whether you grew up in a certain part of the country, because one region subscribed to a different idea of what was the “correct” way to form letters.

Personally, I think if legibility is there, than the shape of the letter matters less. I thought the main concern was the kinetics of writing, and that they try to teach young children to write in a way that makes it easiest for their inexperienced hands. IIRC, they teach a printing style favors the downstroke (so you’re pulling the pencil down, not pushing it up the paper).

My son has had some problems with hand strength and writing. In one meeting I got to hear his teacher, his counselor, and a learning specialist go off on a little tangent together about printing, cursive, and the kinetics of writing. it was pretty interesting.

7

I used to agree with this, but have been recently convinced I’m wrong. My 7-year-old mudgirl apparently has a very odd way of forming her letters, but her teachers didn’t notice for a long time, because her handwriting was quite legible. The problem with the way she writes is that it’s more fatiguing than the way she’s supposed to write. This isn’t too much of a problem at her (2nd grade) level, but will become more of a problem in later grades when she’ll have to do more writing, and will not be able to write quickly enough, or will become too fatigued to finish as legibly as she started.

She’s now working with an occupational therapist weekly to correct her writing method.

8

All I want to know is **What the fark is up with the small k **in the new handwriting.
My kids have already been assimilated. But the damn thing is an r to me.

9

We were taught using what I believe is the Peterson penmanship method. It dictated all the issues you mention - where lines fall wrt the lines on the paper, how far down the middle of the M goes, etc. Other methods of writing instruction may differ, which is where you get the different “right” ways to write.

10

Well, kids need to be taught “a” right way, IMHO. They’re not college students, they’re little kids who need somebody to say, “This is a k. That is not a k. This is how a k is supposed to be written.” I agree on the retrace, and the entire e needs to be below the line.

11

It makes sense from the point of view of transitioning to cursive, but if a kid can learn to transition for the z and the s and the f and… well, one more isn’t that much, is it? I agree with you that there is a very good chance that that little k will end up looking like a capital R when the child develops their own style of writing, though there are few words where the confusion might actually be an issue.

I see it maybe being a problem in math/physics, where a k constant and a R constant might be in the same equation (or in related equations about a topic) and that could be confusing. But then again, I’ve modified my stand-alone letters for mathematics; I cross my z, I put a serif on the bottom of t to distinguish it from +, etc.

Exactly, hence the “standard” worksheets and forms. Everyone learned that a vertical line with a circle to the right is a lower-case B, with a “buh” sound and everyone learned that a vertical line with a horizontal line on the top is a capital T, with a “tuh” sound, but it doesn’t have to be that way. We could use any old squiggles at all, and as long as we all agree on the meaning, it’s “correct”. In fact, most adults form some of their letters as “any old squiggles” but we recognise them for what they are because they look enough like “vertical line topped with horizontal line”, and we learn from context what it should be in a given word, that is isn’t an issue any more.

Kids need a structured, “always the same” way of learning to form their letters, because they really don’t understand that b and d are two different things. Circle plus line, that’s the same, isn’t it? Same with s and z, and why does a j curve to the left and not the right? Grab a piece of paper and write “Wyoming” in printed letters… how many of you wrote that “y” in a form that really is more of an “x”.

“Correct” letter shapes matter - at least until the children are old enough for those shapes to start to have meaning, and by then, minor differences don’t matter any more, because experience and context become more important in determining what is written on a page. Even as adults it can be important: try taking a math class with a prof whose x’s look like y’s, and his f’s look like t’s, and you’ll quickly see how important it becomes.

Sorry, I know I’m rambling a bit, but this topic interests me. I recently helped my mom go over the results of some writing evaluations for her grade 1/2 class, and it’s amazing to “see” how a kid thinks about letters and words.

12

Does it really matter, though? In the end, the letters (well, for the p, b, etc.) will look the same. After all, people’s letters all look different. My capital m’s look like giant little m’s. (No dips.)

13

It’s always amazing to see how kids can screw up writing. I mean, in shocking, really surprising ways. Like today. The number was 6. I can’t fathom why they know “circle” and know “line” but they can’t get “line from top to bottom, then circle to the middle” no matter how many ways I say it, no matter how many examples I draw w/ their hands. Why do they still stop in the middle and pick up the pen/marker? Why do they go backwards or up? WHY?!?!?!

I can’t simplify “draw a line down” any more after I’ve already said “this is a line” and “this is down”, showing them. What’s the problem?!

14

To them, it doesn’t matter. The “drawing” of a 6 is meaningless to them, it doesn’t mean “six”, it doesn’t equate to a number of items, or anything. It’s just a squiggle. And because of that, they will do it any-which-way, because you can draw a squiggle any-which-way.

Drawing them the way we do is just a convention anyways; it’s just that we’ve all agreed to follow those rules. It will take some time for it to sink in that these are rules, and that it matters how it’s done. That’s why, while it doesn’t matter if the middle of the M comes to the centre or all the way down, it does matter to a child to see it and have to write it exactly the same way every time until they understand the rules, until they understand the meaning of the symbol.

Tracing exercises, where the 6 is already on the paper, but in dotted lines, along with space next to it to practise on their own, might be what you need here.

Basically:
6 6 6 6 6 _ _ _ _ _

Is what you need to give them (the bold 6s are there as an example, maybe with arrows to follow around on the first one, and the italic ones are dotted, for the kids to trace several times, and then spaces for them to try it). Over and over and over again.

If this is day-care, these kids are under 5 years old, right? They really aren’t old enough to learn the connection between letters and sounds, numbers and symbols, etc. It’s a huge part of where a kid needs to be during/after grade one, which is when a kid is 6-7 years old. It just takes time for them, for their brains to develop to the point of being able to understand why they have to do this. Letter and number reversals (backwards letters, b for d, etc) are common through til grade two even! By trying it, seeing it used, and making the sound-symbol, number-symbol connections over time, they’ll get it… just likely not as young as day care, no matter how good a teacher you are!