Who would you say is the greater musician?
Donald Fagen, hands down. He’s in a whole other league as a composer, regardless of Elton’s walls full of gold records. Perhaps thankfully, Donald could never have written “Bite Your Lip (Get Up And Dance)”, and if Elton lived four lifetimes, he’d never come close to thinking up one of the chord sequences in “Babylon Sisters.”
“Omigod, how were you able to think of something that amazing?!” is something that I have never said to an Elton John record as it played.
I happen to like both, but agree that Fagan is a greater musician. Elton excels in creating catchy pop songs, but Fagan is trying to do much more complex music (and succeeding). I also think Elton is quite good as a straightaway rocker, but rarely does any of that (listen to his album 11/17/70 to see how good he can really be).
But on pure musicianship, Fagan gets the edge.
Fishbicycle and RealityChuck, thank you both for your opinions. I like both very much as well, and have been in awe of Donald Fagen for years. However, I recently read that that it rarely takes Elton more than forty-five minutes to compose a song, and in addition, he writes the music after the words have been written…the opposite of the norm and supposedly a much more difficult task. In other words, he gets a sheet of paper with words on it and everything else you hear, the melody, vocal embellishments, etc., all come from him, and usually in only forty-five minutes or so.
I readily acknowledge Fagen’s genius and musical sophistication (a la Babylon Sisters, et al.), and I realize that to compare their music is somewhat an apples and oranges affair, but the things I’ve recently read have caused me to wonder whether Elton’s genius may be on a par with, or even perhaps superior to in a different kind of way, that of Fagen’s.
Fagan’s a better musician. But Elton John is the better piano player by far. If that counts for anything. As a decent piano player myself, I think the playing itself is all merely craft. The true genius is in composition.
I’d say the answer has less to do with the musical abilities of each, and more with how we define what great music is. Is jazz inherently more important, more musical, than bluegrass, just because it has more complex chord structures? I don’t think so. Therefore, it makes no sense to say either is the greater musician. If a three-chord Lefty Frizzell weeper affects me more deeply than a Wagner opera, then that has to be the standard upon which I decide which is greater.
I think that’s what I’m trying to get at. Perhaps I should have asked which of these incredibly talented musicians is the greater musician given the incredible sophistication and complexity of Fagen’s music vs. the range of brilliant compositions over the years that Elton John seems to be able dash off with so little effort…“I rarely spend more than forty-five minutes writing a song. Usually, if I don’t have it in an hour I abandon it and go on to something else.”–Elton John
Once again, I’m a huge fan of both these guys and have no real preference as to which one wins out in my little poll here. And like I said, I realize that this is somewhat of an apples and oranges comparison, but I think that’s the reason for my curiosity.
I hope more of the people who read this thread will respond with their opinions (provided of course, that they are familiar with the musicians involved, especially Fagen, who is likely to be relatively unknown to those under 45 yrs. or so). And thanks to those of you who already have.
Elton does it this way simply because he has no talent for lyrics. Otherwise why do it the hard way? His usual lyricist, Taupin, IMO is no great shakes either, but obviously over time they have learnt to fit in with each other’s strengths and phrasing. It is therefore little surprise that Elton can bang out songs to the lyrics.
Many song writers work to similar time scales, on the basis that if it takes them any longer to write a song then it’ll be contrived and not up to standard. Other writers (like Fagen) will labour over a song for weeks, months until they are happy. Different strokes; the end result is evidence of how it works for each. Unfortunately, with Elton…
Elton John is a great piano player. But generally speaking I dislike his music. His massive popularity is a mystery to me. Donald Fagen, on the other hand, I like and seems to me to be a far greater all-rounder. He could do with being a bit more prolific though!
And as an under 45 year old I resent the implication!
I am all about Donand Fagen. I love Steely Dan.
Now don’t get me wrong, I enjoy some Elton John stuff (especially the earlier stuff) but I can say that there is no Elton John song I enjoy more than a Steely Dan or Fagen solo song.
To me, there has never been a bad Steely Dan song.
I agree that John is the better piano player, but the proof is in the composition as far as I am concerned. And I am not a believer that a more complex song is better, but the varitey and style put forth by Becker and Fagen is unique, smooth, satirical, and soulful all at the same time. You always know a Steely Dan song when you hear it. You cannot say the same for Disney boy, I mean Elton.
I guess this should almost be Taupin/John vs. Becker/Fagen…IMO, a knockout in the first round for the Dan!!
P.S. I am 27 years old…
I like both of 'em. But if I was on a desert island, and could only listen to one of them, I’d pick Donald. I don’t think I could ever tire of him. There’s way more going on in his music.
Excuse me, but what is Walter Becker, chopped liver?
Steely Dan is a two-man team, Becker and Fagen, and has been colloidally from the start. I don’t know how to separate out their contributions. I do know they are better together than separately, just as Lennon and McCartney were. It’s true that The Nightfly is the best of their solo albums, but nothing since by either or both has lived up to the early work.
That’s true of Elton John as well. The first albums, up until about 1975, showed a continual growth from troubadour to operatic rocker. He mastered every form of music he touched. Unfortunately, he has spent the last three decades coasting.
I think Steely Dan’s music overall is more complex, more interesting, and certainly involves better musicians and more care to production.
But when you ask me to parse out the individual contributions of Fagen and John in the middle of all that, I’ve got to throw up my hands. What are we grading them on, anyway?
To those of you who have been offended by my “under forty-five” comment, please know that I think it’s great that you appreciate Fagen and “The Dan.” I was attempting to solicit more responses to my original question while trying also to acknowledge that many of the people who may read the question may not be familiar with Fagen due to the plain and simple fact that many people even of my own generation aren’t very familiar with them. Mention Steely Dan to most people, even those over forty-five and you’re usually get a response along the line of, "Oh, yeah. I remember them…didn’t they do ‘Reelin’ In The Years’…or perhaps, ‘Rikki Don’t Lose That Number.’ In other words, many people even my own age aren’t very familiar with them and it’s an undeniable fact that each generation tends be more familiar with their own music than that of a previous generation. Additionally, for the first time in my life I’m beginning to run into grown adults who don’t know who Cary Grant was, and who have only a vague notion of who ‘that Frank Sinatra guy’ was. Therefore, I’m completely at a loss as to with whom the younger readers of this thread are familiar. Once, again…no offense intended.
Having said that, I think that this thread is veering somewhat off the original question. The response of Futile Gesture is more along the line of what I’m trying to find out. (Btw, I, too would like to see more output from Fagen.) I’m not asking who is your favorite musician between the two, or whose music you like the best, but who do you think is the greater musical “genius?”
With regard to Walter Becker: No slight is intended where he is concerned either, and I believe that intellectually he is probably on a par with Fagen, but Fagen seems to be the greater guiding and disciplinary influence upon the sound of Steely Dan, and the one who is most responsible for the brilliant chord changes and complex sound of Steely Dan. His solo music is so close to that of Steely Dan that most casual listeners can’t tell the difference. Such is not the case with Becker. I think Fagen would probably be the first to say that Steely Dan couldn’t and wouldn’t have existed without Becker, and he would probably be rather contemptuous of me or anyone else he perceived as not giving Becker his due, but it is my (admittedly musically uneducated) opinion that Fagen is the greater of two equals.
May I direct you to “Flaunt The Imperfection” by China Crisis? Produced by Walter Becker. It sounds quite similar to a Steely Dan album with a different vocalist. It doesn’t have much in the way of those stunning chord changes that Fagen writes, but when I heard the China Crisis LP, it dawned on me that I really was previously unaware how much Walter contributed to the sound of Steely Dan. And it’s portable - whatever it is, he can take it with him!
Then later, after I heard pre- and post-FTI China Crisis music, it was clear how little they sounded like they did on FTI in the hands of other producers. So Walter really does have something there. But that’s getting away from the OP, sorry. I just wanted to pitch in my humble opinion on your comment above.
Thank you, fishbicycle, I’ll definately check it out. I like Becker, and in fact “Slang of Ages” from Steely Dan’s latest album and in which he sings lead, is one of my favorite tracks on the album.
It looks like Fagen by a landslide here in my little poll, and especially by those in the know musically. Thank you all for your comments.
If you like the Becker Song on Everything Must Go may I recommend 11 Tracks of Whack, Walter Becker’s 1994 solo album. It gives you a real good insight into who contributes what to the sound of The Dan.
Thank you, slu. I’m not familiar with this album but I’ve heard of it. “Everything Must Go” wasn’t out yet and most of the comments I read about it indicated there were only one or two good tracks on it. However, if it’s similar to Becker’s work on “Slang of Ages” I would very much like to give it a try.
Thanks again.