Embassy Closings

[Marley23]

@Werekoala

While true, I trust that you will forgive me if I need something a bit more than just “Because we said so” when it comes to things like this, after 12 years of it in ever-increasing doses.

Ever increasing doses of what? And isn’t all the evidence always going to be ‘because we said so?’

[DrDeth]

@Werekoala

While true, I trust that you will forgive me if I need something a bit more than just “Because we said so” when it comes to things like this, after 12 years of it in ever-increasing doses.

So, if they don’t prevent the attack, they are wrong, useless, incompetent, and all the spying is for naught.

But if they DO prevent the attack, well then, there’s no proof there was any real threat to start, right? :dubious:

Have you ever heard the expression “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t”? :rolleyes:

I mean, what can they do that would convince you?

[newcomer]

@Marley23

That’s a real concern, but it’s not the same as going ‘wake up people!’ for this specific situation. It was claimed upthread that this was BS because there were no particulars about the purported threat; now there are some specifics out there and the goalposts get moved.

Embassies got closed on assumption - there are no details to speak of. Just a chatter or increased volume of messages between parties being monitored.

They might as well decided to close all the airports - the problem is for airports they’d need more than chatter.

Closing an embassy is the cheapest route to incite the population, create a news cycle, deflect and justify NSA snooping.

The problem here is that any information that people would believe comes from the same source with occasional slip of the tongue by well-trained Senator or Congressman - it is the official Government line and Government being a hierarchical organization has no problem in forming it and sticking to it.

What’s interesting is that in any other Government endeavour, most people would call Government total incompetent tools but somehow when it comes to fear management not a single voice of opposition can be heard. It’s amazing actually.

[newcomer]

@DrDeth

So, if they don’t prevent the attack, they are wrong, useless, incompetent, and all the spying is for naught.

But if they DO prevent the attack, well then, there’s no proof there was any real threat to start, right? :dubious:

Have you ever heard the expression “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t”? :rolleyes:

I mean, what can they do that would convince you?

Would you agree that certain agencies of US Government may be doing the deed of extremely illegal and criminal nature in some part of the world that may cause related parties that experienced the deed to imagine it is the work of US Government and, at the very least, discuss of revenge on US interests?

Do you think such scenario is possible?

[Werekoala]

@Marley23

Ever increasing doses of what? And isn’t all the evidence always going to be ‘because we said so?’

Were you so glib and accepting of this type of “information” under the prior administration?

I ask only to be able to form a baseline.

[Marley23]

@newcomer

Embassies got closed on assumption - there are no details to speak of. Just a chatter or increased volume of messages between parties being monitored.

I already linked to this.

@Werekoala

Were you so glib and accepting of this type of “information” under the prior administration?

I wasn’t part of the “Bush raised the terror alert because his poll numbers went down” crowd, if that’s what you mean. I’m in no position to evaluate whether the reported threats are legitimate, but I think there’s evidence to show about half a dozen countries did take this seriously. And there actually are specifics here.

[Chessic_Sense]

@newcomer

Closing an embassy is the cheapest route to incite the population, create a news cycle, deflect and justify NSA snooping.

Hey, what a coincidence! It’s also the cheapest route to keep embassy workers alive! Wouldja look’t that.

By the way, I hope you’re happy, Oakminster. You’re on the same team as newcomer. Good job. How’s that feel?

[Werekoala]

@Chessic_Sense

Hey, what a coincidence! It’s also the cheapest route to keep embassy workers alive! Wouldja look’t that.

Well hey, here’s an idea - you want to keep embassy workers alive? Shut the embassies down permanently.

Ah, but we can’t do that, because…

Profit?

[levdrakon]

@Marley23

[del]Isn’t that basically how they say they found out about this[/del] Dang, you’ve caught them.

Here’s a recent Reuters article on it: Al Qaeda intercept is just one piece of threat intelligence: U.S. sources | Reuters

No mention of any special NSA ability. It mentions electronic intelligence intercept but we’ve been doing that since WWII at least.

[Werekoala]

@Marley23

I wasn’t part of the “Bush raised the terror alert because his poll numbers went down” crowd, if that’s what you mean. I’m in no position to evaluate whether the reported threats are legitimate, but I think there’s evidence to show about half a dozen countries did take this seriously. And there actually are specifics here.

Did half a dozen countries ask us to shut down our embassies? I must have missed that part of the story…

[Marley23]

@Werekoala

Did half a dozen countries ask us to shut down our embassies? I must have missed that part of the story…

What? Six countries closed down embassies, mostly in Yemen. That indicates those countries think something serious might be going on, does it not?

[Werekoala]

@Marley23

What? Six countries closed down embassies, mostly in Yemen. That indicates those countries think something serious might be going on, does it not?

Depends on how deep you think the rabbit hole goes.

I knew Great Britain had closed some embassies but didn’t know there were more - honestly, I’m not following the story as closely as I might have in prior years because I’m getting tired of the whole “We’ve always been at war with Eastasia, except for last week when we were at war with Eurasia” nature of the War on Terror .

Shameful admission - I was a totally gung-ho, do-what-thou-wilt, “America, Fuck yeah!” type for the first 3-4 years of the War but even before Bush Jr. left office it wore thin on me and there aren’t that many layers of onionskin left between acceptance and outright disdain. At least I can admit it, and that I’ve grown. Hell, I don’t even support waterboarding anymore (and haven’t since about 2008-2009) - and I’ve been waterboarded in simulated circumstances before, so I know it works… for a given value of “works”.

[levdrakon]

This PBS vid/article strongly suggests NSA’s PRISM program had nothing to do with these embassy closures.

GWEN IFILL: Mark Mazzetti, one of the things we have been paying a lot of attention to lately is the surveillance notion, that we are keeping an eye not only on domestic recordings, domestic communications, but also especially internationally. Is this an example of payoff, payout or that kind of – that PRISM program, those kinds of international networks we have been mounting?

MARK MAZZETTI: Well, defenders of the program certainly are pointing that out. And you heard a lot of members of Congress on Sunday talk shows yesterday citing this as an example of the necessity of this surveillance, although it should be pointed out a couple things, first of all, that some critics were saying that the most controversial aspect of the surveillance, which is the bulk collection of American cell phone – phone records, wasn’t the reason why this chatter may have been intercepted.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec13/terror2_08-05.html

[Magiver]

@BrainGlutton

Look, evacuating and closing these embassies – until the danger is past, nothing in the story suggests it’s permanent – will prevent al-Qaeda attacks instead of putting our staff and soldiers in the position of having to fight them. It’s both safer and cheaper. It’s the only common-sense way to handle it.

because the terrorists were making a souffle bomb and it would spoil in a week?

What’s stopping them from attacking an embassy if it’s closed? Nothing.

What happened the last time a group of people attacked a US embassy (for 8 hours)? Nothing. Obama did nothing. That’s what the op should be embarrassed about.

He’s a useless git and should have been hung out to dry by the media over that.

[Alessan]

@HMS_Irruncible

So the point is this… do you want to exclude normal traffic from the one area we can now be sure an attack won’t take place? And of course you’d like to know, but was there a major media outlet that was not carrying this story today?

I mean, seriously.

So why weren’t government offices, courts, museums and airports closed? Why wasn’t my son’s school closed? Why weren’t there police checkpoints throughout the city? Al-Qaeda don’t just target Americans you know - they hate Israelis just as much. If they were active in my city, I would want the authorities to do something about it.

[BrokenBriton]

@Marley23

What? Six countries closed down embassies, mostly in Yemen. That indicates those countries think something serious might be going on, does it not?

No it doesn’t. It means the US communicated the usual bogus bullshit, enough - and only enough - for other countries to have to say ‘we’d better take it seriously just in case they’re not bullshitting this time and our staff really are at risk’.

Any explosions anywhere, yet?

[carnivorousplant]

@BrokenBriton

Any explosions anywhere, yet?

Just ours.

[Marley23]

@BrokenBriton

No it doesn’t. It means the US communicated the usual bogus bullshit, enough - and only enough - for other countries to have to say ‘we’d better take it seriously just in case they’re not bullshitting this time and our staff really are at risk’.

So your theory is that the U.S. is the only country that monitors Al Qaeda and other countries just take its word all the time?

Any explosions anywhere, yet?

Guffaw. Hilarious!

[BrokenBriton]

@Marley23

So your theory is that the U.S. is the only country that monitors Al Qaeda and other countries just take its word all the time?

The comment isn’t really worth responding to, is it?
Meanwhile, the adults are talking:

It is unfortunate, but true that Americans cannot trust the statements of their leaders about threats to national security. Ironically, this is especially so when questions are being raised about the competence of the government or the legitimacy of its policies. The United States government has a long history of deflecting criticism by crying wolf, especially the terrorism kind of wolf.

On Friday, the US State Department issued a global travel alert after announcing it was closing 22 diplomatic missions in the Middle East and North Africa.

As an American, I question the US travel alerts and embassy closures | Lance...

Privacy campaigners criticised the widespread linking of the latest terror alerts with the debate over the domestic powers of the NSA. Amie Stepanovich, a lawyer with the Electronic Privacy Information Center, said: “The NSA’s choice to publish these threats at this time perpetuates a culture of fear and unquestioning deference to surveillance in the United States.”

News of the fresh terror alert came as Congress looked increasingly likely to pursue fresh attempts to limit the NSA’s domestic powers when it returns in September.

“The NSA takes in threat information every day. You have to ask, why now? What makes this information different?” added Stepanovich.

US embassy closures used to bolster case for NSA surveillance programs

I’m sure you’re finding similar debates opening up in the mainstream US media.

[Marley23]

@BrokenBriton

The comment isn’t really worth responding to, is it?

That’s from someone who thinks “any explosions yet?” is funny?