A few notes:
As far as I know, France doesn’t have a board “busting people for using English words”, they have a language academy making suggestions about language. Whether usage follows these suggestions doesn’t depend on them.
Quebec doesn’t “fine shopkeepers for displaying signs in English”, but we have language laws that require the French to be prominent on commercial signs. They can then be in any language the shopkeeper wants them to be, including English.
The Ethnologue (http://www.ethnologue.com/) is probably the most thorough central source for language information by country.
Plus, it’ll pave the way for that sorely needed Constitutional amendment to make singing “Nuestro Himno” punishable by law.
THe first implication I can think of is that we’d actually have to teach English in schools. That would certainly throw everyone involved into a tizzy.
Sailboat
I’m with those thinking it’s a stupid and francophone thing to do. While the French may or may not have a language police - they do have the requirement for simultaneous translation of anything presented at a conference. Which wouldn’t be a problem if AIUI many conferences hadn’t already had their programs in English because it was the most common language among all the attendees.
Huh? I was just attending a conference in Montreal and I didn’t know of any requirement for simultaneous translation.
I can’t think of a single European nation with a population over 1 million that doesn’t have at least one significant linguistic minority dating from before the days of immigration. National boundaries only very roughly match linguistic boundaries on this continent, when they match at all.
Many nations have official national languages. That does not stop them from offering bilingual education to immigrants and/or their own native linguistic minorities. It does not stop them from offering drivers’ license exams and other services in other languages. In fact official languages only apply to things like the languages laws are written in, and the language used in court. Since in practice only English is used in these functions in the United States, this bill will make little or no practical difference should it become law.
While Quebec is francophone, I didn’t mean that they had the law requiring simultaneous translation - that’s a France only thing, AIUI.
Re the bilingual education–I thought there were studies that had shown that kids in bilingual ed fared more poorly than kids who were immersed in English. No time to look for a cite, because I am off to work, which brings me to my point.
I have no idea where you live, but I live in suburbia and work in a blue collar section of the city. The Hispanics at work (ie pts and their families), almost none of the them speak English. You can have 12 family members in a room and be unable to get a history from any of them. In my experience, it is a rarity that any of the Hispanics speak English. They will nod yes to your question, but they cannot give info or answer the most basic questions in English. Lately (last 3 years) I have noticed an expectation that the nurses and the staff will speak Spanish.(?) I don’t doubt for a minute that it’s the first generation of immigrants who don’t speak English, and the subsequent ones who assimilate. I don’t see that happening where I work or live.
This is purely anecdotal, but I have heard from nurses in California (and Florida) that American nurses cannot get jobs in these states UNLESS they speak Spanish. That is messed up. At my hospital we have a book, with all the staff who are willing to translate, if needed. Nobody wants a pt’s needs to go unmet in their time of need–but to have to speak Spanish to get a job?
We had roofers in the other day, at my house–none of the workers spoke English. Landscaping businesses abound in my community–none of the ones used by my neighbors speak English. I understand that illegal immigration is a problem, but all of these folks cannot be aliens or even fresh immigrants.
While I think it is important for everyone to learn a foreign language (because it’s a good idea and also it give insight into cultures not our own), I dislike the elevation of Spanish language that is going on. To go on TV and wave a Mexican flag, all the while screaming for your rights as an American is just short sighted stupidity, IMO. No, the national anthem should not be sung in Spanish–did the Poles or Germans or Koreans translate it and sing it as a protest song? What is that all about? It’s no selling point to me.
Why not have an official language? Not much (if anything) will change–except that it will be perhaps better understood that if one wants to come to this country, one needs to adapt to the culture and language of the country. By all means, stay bilingual. But in order to do that, you need to learn English.*
I dated a Cuban immigrant while I was in college-his family had gotten out of Cuba right before Castro. He joined an organization that supported English only (this was back in the 80’s)–he is fluent in Spanish, but feels strongly that immigrants, ALL, immigrants, should learn and speak English once they are here. I agree.
*this applies to all who come. They are becoming more rare, but there are still Serbian women (very old now) who come to the hospital as pts. Been in the country 40+ years and still not a lick of English. That bugs me, too. I emphasize Spanish because of its prominence.
To clarify: it has language in it to the effect that nobody may expect services in other languages as a matter of “right” unless that is specifically authorized by law… well, what do you think authorizes most of the multilingual services available today, if not some law or another (e.g. the quoted Naturalization regulation, which says senior citizens need not learn English)?
If you want to try to find evidence of that, it would be welcome. It’s a tough question - such things are very difficult to prove; a lot of research exists, and different research suggests different things.
That’s not surprising. Immigrants of any nationality tend to have a difficult time learning new languages as adults. This is certainly not a phenomenon unique to Spanish speakers, nor does it in any way contradict the general trend, which is clear. While adult immigrants may never learn English well, their children do. This is something that has been well-studied by sociolinguists - while in most cases the children of immigrants are bilingual, by the third generation they almost inevitably lose their family’s language in favor of English. This pattern is actually quite clear no matter what language you’re discussing - immigrants often never manage to develop a fluent grasp of English, while their grandchildren will never be fluent in their ancestral language.
If you don’t see children learning English, frankly, you’re not seeing reality. There’s mounds of rather boring research on the subject.
I don’t see why that’s unreasonable. Having the capability to serve your clientele seems like a pretty key component of being a nurse. You are aware, of course, that California’s Spanish-speaking population predates its English-speaking population, correct? The first white residents of the area were Spanish speakers, and the Southwest was thoroughly populated by Spanish speakers when it was taken from Mexico. There are archaic dialects of Spanish spoken in New Mexico that preserve features that left the standard language hundreds of years ago. Spanish is simply not a foreign language in the Southwest, and it’s arrogant in the extreme to insist that people give up the native language of their communities and say it’s what they ought to do as Americans.
Wait, construction workers? Landscapers? Speaking Spanish? The mind boggles!
Wow, the ignorance of Americans regarding our countries own history never ceases to amaze me. Yes, the National Anthem was sung in German (back in 1861.) And Polish. And Yiddish. And French. (Cite: Language Log: The multilingual anthem) It’s no surprise that it was translated into German - my great-grandfather actually spoke only German as a child, and he was born in the U.S. But he was born in a German-speaking community in Pennsylvania, one of many that existed at the time.
This fuss over something as trivial as the lyrics to the national anthem is illustrative, in my opinion, of the fact that this debate is not based upon any particular concern over the fate of immigrants. Because no one seriously believes that they need us to make laws in order to help them figure out that their future success depends on learning English. The outrage over the national anthem demonstrates that a lot of people are simply pissed off at the presence of outsiders.
Do you think that immigrants are stupid? That they’re unaware that most people here speak English, and that their children’s success depends on learning English? Most immigrants I’ve known have come here with an eye for their family’s future. It can’t be pleasant to move to a place where most people don’t speak your language; they don’t do it out of some desire to Hispanify the United States. Immigrants are usually extremely concerned with their children learning English; it’s condescending at the very least to suggest that they need white people to tell them what’s best for them and their children, especially when they’re already well-aware.
The first wave of Cuban immigrants had it pretty nice, actually. The United States government welcomed them with open arms, and allowed them to establish themselves in Miami. Most of those who were permitted to come here were successful, well-off professionals. They had the luxury of being able to stop their lives and learn English, and particularly so as the Cuban community became thoroughly established in Miami, which did a lot to ensure that new Cubans were able to easily find professional work (as opposed to Mexicans in many places, who work jobs like construction and landscaping for far lower wages, as you’ve alluded to above.) For a group of immigrants, it must have been nice for them to have that luxury.
Your sense of entitlement is pretty striking. Monolingual Spanish-speakers who for all you know could be in the process of trying to learn English are out of line, but the fact that you have to learn Spanish to be able to communicate with your patients is an outrage?
INMO the sense of arrogance and entitlement rests with the Spanish speakers who haven’t learned the majority’s language and who insist that communication to and form them must be on their terms in their language. Spanish speaking only enclaves on US soil are an affront to the majority and not a sign of the majority’s arrogance. It doen’t matter to me that the children of the Spanish only speakers grow up to be proficient in both languages, because the huge English only speaking majority has to communicate at a disadvantage with the Spanish only speaking adults now.
Let’s come at this from another way. The Pirates’ Hall of Fame outfielder Roberto Clemente, a native of Puerto Rico who spoke only Spanish when he first arrived in this country, was justifiably offended by people who made fun of his attempts to speak English. While his English was poor, he made the effort and those who made fun of him were cruel and wrong to do so. In recent years on the other hand we have Sammy Sosa, who speaks and understands English but who hid behind Spanish when asked difficult questions about his corked bats and steriod use. Roberto deserved sympathy with regard to the language. Sammy did not. If English were the official language, Clemente would have been honored for his effort and Sosa would have discredited for his.
What a hard time you must have getting through the day, having to judge and catagorize everyone you meet. It’s funny, I spend all day talking to people who’s first language isn’t English, and I never once had to delve in to their history or determine if they were a “good” or “bad” limted English speaker. I just act like we are both humans. I guess I can consider myself lucky to have such a simple life.
Linguistic enclaves in the USA wherein immigrants stay on for decades functioning in their home language and/or asserting their ethnocultural identity rather than assimilating are of neither recent NOR hispanophone origin – v. the Chinatowns of major American cities or the German communities both urban and rural, of the 19th-early 20th centuries.
The norm is that true integration into the larger common culture happens generationally – the children-of-children born in the USA who want to get ahead beyond the enclave, are the ones who integrate the community.
What happens today is that (a) the sheer volume and growth rate of the Latino community outstrips the “natural” pace of integration/assimilation and (b) the degree of connectedness and mobility of the society is such that the “contact frontline” is everywhere (rather than at 105th St.) so more people notice.
And y’know, IRT Clemente, I think the newspaper asshats would have been just as derisory about his struggle to learn it had it been the* legal * official language, rather than just de-facto being the only language he was allowed to do business in.
Oh, I don’t know. If personal insults weren’t forbidden in this thread, a rule you ignore, I’d say that you probably have a harder time than me getting through the day what with having to use a crane to get up on your high horse all the time.
There are schools here in San Diego and probably elsewhere which put kids through at least elementary school without having to take any classes in English.
There are first generations of immigrants coming in all the time, especially from Mexico. You don’t see it because the young ones may be first-generation, too. People don’t leave their kids in Mexico when they immigrate.
Bullshit. I live two hours from the border and there are TONS of nurses and doctors with great jobs who don’t speak Spanish. Now, maybe a couple of nurses in particular, of your acquaintance, looked for jobs in California or Florida and the particular hospital they were applying to needed a Spanish-speaking nurse at the particular time they were applying–or maybe not speaking Spanish was a convenient excuse not to hire someone they didn’t want for other reasons. I can’t tell you, because I don’t know you or them, but the idea that nurses can’t get a job here because they don’t speak Spanish is horseshit. But if that’s what that hospital needs, well, they need to either learn Spanish or move somewhere else where they don’t have to. There is no shortage of demand for skilled medical professionals anywhere in this country AFAIK. If making one’s customers as comfortable and well-attended as possible isn’t important in the medical profession, I don’t know what is.
Sure they can. You’re making assumptions with no factual evidence.
How so? Can’t somebody have allegiance to two countries?
Now this I can get behind.
When was the last time you weren’t able to do something you needed to do because of someone literally being completely unable to speak English to you?
He was born in this country and was a US citizen from the time he was an embryo. Puerto Rico is part of the United States.
This is obviously correct and I regret my error.
Last year when as an attorney who takes court appointments to represent indigents I was bypassed as being appointed to represent an indigent defendant in a criminal case in suburban Cleveland Ohio because the defendant only spoke Spanish.
Obviously, indigent defendants are entitled to court appointed attorneys. If the defendant only speaks Spanish, in order for such a defendant to receive adequate legal representation the defendant and attorney must be able to communicate with each other. In order for them to communicate with the court the spanish must be interpreted into English, which leads to an additional court cost and makes the administration of justice that much more expensive.
Good–didn’t mean to nitpick, sorry. I get what you were saying, of course.
I file this under “gotta serve your clients”. I commiserate with you, but hey, Spanish ain’t that hard to learn–much easier than English, I went from almost completely incompetent to 90% competent (as described by a native Spanish speaker) in about four months although granted I’d taken some classes before that time and not paid much attention–and anyway I think your beef is with illegal immigration. We can make a meaningless law declaring English the national language, or a valuable language or whatever, but in the end there are going to be people who didn’t go to school here and will be let in by slacking INS folks or will come in illegally. I have my own ideas for the solution to the latter problem, but that’s a story for another thread IMO. I’d be happy to discuss it by email if you so desire.