English-only in the US: Unconstitutional?

Great Debates
81

Sua, actually my position is between that of Messrs. Mace and sailor. (And I still think the difference is not that bloody great, ultimately)

My comment was intended as an illustration in regards to that, indeed, cultural assimilation is one thing, efficient integration into the social economy is another, and they keep getting confused. The later should be a priority of schools and government and of all the people (in a way that respects the students’ dignity, of course)

As many of us have stated, hardliners at both ends of the spectrum have a disturbing propensity to handcuff the two issues together – to say that integration MUST mean assimilation. Feh and feh. Prove it, I tell them both.

I see my compatriot Karl Grenze has pointed out what is the problem with some approaches to the bilingual eductation issue (of course, we have a peculiar perspective on it all). Y’see, the argument which I (and many of us) support, that in order to increase your success chances beyond the “enclave” you need to communicate effectively in English and know some key references of that culture, is somehow either too sophisticated or too mushy-sounding for some policymakers and their agents, so they instead let it become “Spanish (or Vietnamese, or Amharic) is the language of losers from the ghetto” (and I’m not gonna let some of our “leaders” off the hook, who turn this around to mean we should actively resist English).

But, as the world exists today, in order to have true equal opportunity, a citizen (child or adult) DOES need to be given the means to acquire the common language of his greater society on reasonable terms. HOWEVER, it’s NOT like the “only” alternative that achieves that goal while preserving her dignity HAS to be a school-and-government-services structure where EITHER of the languages is denigrated or made invisible. Some accommodation should be possible (and IMO it must be more than just one almost-afterthought ESL or Hispanic-studies class). I will respect those who may disagree as to the terms of the accommodation or feel that it should go “this” far while I think it should go “that” far, if I see sincere intentions (as opposed to a strategy to make only token gestures). TOTAL accommodation is not a realistic demand but I will support an aspiration towards building a truly plural society.

82

I am all for good education, which BTW, is not the norm in the USA. I am all for people learning a second language, which, BTW, is pathetically lacking in the USA. Allow people to choose the language in school and require proficiency in a second language. How about that? If your primary education is in English then you need to study a second language (really, not what passes for second language teaching now). If your education is in another language then your second language must be English. And the second language requirement must be at the seme level whether the second language is English or other. I can live with that. Seems fair to me.

83

That also applies to school band programs, drama, sports, etc. Are people forced by economics to send their children to schools that don’t provide these also being deprived by the majority that won’t pay for these?

But neither is bilingual education. It imposes an additional cost on the taxpayers, by requiring additional textbooks, teachers, etc.
In a world where the provision of bilingual education imposed no additional costs, you may have a point. But what moral rationale is there to impose on the majority an additional cost for a service they do not want or need, and do not wish to pay for?

John Mace, I brought up Prop 13 because the OP started this thread about Prop 227.

Sua

84

Greetings from the capital of MexAmerica!

There are too many individual posts to quote, so I’m going to comment on some general trends I see here.

re: Prop 227. It mandated that non-English-speaking children be taught in an Immersion setting, where they are put into a classroom where only English is spoken by the teacher while instructing. The old system had classes where subjects were taught in Spanish so children did not fall behind while they learned English so they would not fall behind in the subject matter, but obviously many people thought it was an unsuccessful way to get them to learn English. The bilingual stipend teachers received for being able to speak both languages is coming to an end. Of course, the teachers still need to speak Spanish to converse with most of the parents in this city, but they won’t be financially acknowledged for the ability to do so. In the LA schools, the parents, after a certain trial period, had the option to switch back to a traditional bilingual setting, but so far, most have not decided to do this.

Another thing. Given that the issue is strongest in the West and Southwest, it is a mistake to regard it solely as an issue relating to minorities and immigrants. Latinos are the MAJORITY in this city, and are not going to be a minority in CA for very much longer. Furthermore, while there are huge numbers of immigrants, both legal and illegal pouring in, most of the children are citizens, and for that matter, are descendants of citizens. The first State Census for California in 1850, available at my library, shows mostly Spanish surnames (surprise, surprise). While there were many subsequent attempts at cleansing the state of Mexicans, you didn’t think they actually succeeded, did you?

There are a small number of families in this state who can trace their citizenry and presence here much farther back than the politicians and lobbyists whose parents or grandparents moved here in the 40s and 50s for the growing defense and aerospace opportunities, who were descended from people who were fresh off the boat. Who’s the “immigrant” in such a case, and who should get to tell whom what language they should learn?

I believe such short-sightedness stems from our experience during our westward expansion, when all we encountered were defeatable Indians and the occasional Frenchman on land that had been sold to us. When you get to California, Arizona, New Mexico, etc. you are talking about land that we won mostly by means of force. You are talking about Occupied Mexico.

White English speaking citizens have had a number of decades as a majority in this part of the country, but that time is drawing to a close. At some point, America will have to deal with the fact that in one large region, people can exist day to day their whole lives without speaking one word of English. In this same region, it may turn out, some time in the next half-century, that the people who do not speak Spanish are going to be at a distinct disadvantage.

85

I would love to see the day when LAtinos are a majority in some state and the arguments of integration used by anglo speakers are turned around. I know I’ll be seeing a lot of people squirm.

Sua, if and when the population of California is 51% latino will you support a measure that all kids be taught in Spanish? How would you feel if your options were a) have your kids educated in a language you do not understand, b) pay for a private school or c) move to another state (or country)?

86

scot: Please refrain from misrepresenting what the proposition mandated. Thanks in advance.

87

“if and when the population of California is 51% latino will you support a measure that all kids be taught in Spanish?”

No. For the simple reason that I am absolutely certain you could not get even a majority of the Latino population to want that. I doubt you could get enough signatures to get a initiative on the ballot. I would’t even have to rely on the better reason-- that it would be detrimental to the kids and to the country.

Do you really believe that this is even a realistic scenario, or are you just proposing a hypothetical w/o regard to whether or not it could ever happen? I’m sincerely interested in understanding this.

BTW, I would support any effort by schools to teach non-English languages as a second language. Especially in the early years of education. We are sorely lacking in that area in this country.

88

My discussion with you has been on issues of rights, whether it is proper (from your perspective) for the majority to mandate what language is used in public schools and (from my perspective) whether it is proper for the minority to mandate that the majority expend additional funds to satisfy the desires of the minority.
I have not told you how I would vote if Prop 227 was raised in my home state, because I don’t know yet. I do know that, IMO, this is an issue where determination by the will of the majority is both legally and ethically proper.

So, if there were a mirror Prop 227 on the ballot, I would vote against it, and if my side lost, I would be deeply irritated - kinda like the way I felt when Bush pere beat Dukakis. :smiley: I’d come on the boards and kvetch about the moronic fellow citizens of my state. And I’d decide whether to send my kids to public school, to private school, or to move.

What I wouldn’t do is proclaim that I have been deprived of my rights (because I haven’t), or that the majority were evil and oppressive (because they weren’t). A liberal democratic system derives a great deal of its legitimacy from the fact that the protections given to minority POVs is quite limited. Only those most crucial issues, and those structures required to allow democracy to be maintained, are given special protection.
Language used in education isn’t, and shouldn’t be, one of them, either legally or ethically.
The true underpinning of democracy is the belief that the majority of the people are usually right.

Sua

89

Check out Garden Grove, CA. There are many, many Vietnamese-only speaking people. You could live your whole life there using only Vietnamese. I believe it also boasts to have the best Pho? in the world–better than Saigon. But then again, Falls Church, VA also boasts the best Pho?. Also, I’ve noticed there is an increasing population of Vietnamese in the China Towns of San Fran, Toronto, and Boston. But I’m not sure how convenient, business- or educational-wise, it would be for them to not learn English.

90

HB: Many does not equate to predominant.

91

You’re right. I actually forgot I was in “Great Debates,” usually lurking in “General Questions.” I thought you simply wanted to know where there were LOTS of Vietnamese-speaking people, because you were interested in using the language, totally missing the sarcasm in the question. :smack:

92

Gotcha, HBby–no problem. By the way, back when I wasn’t a vegetarian, I’d’ve said the best pho? was to be had in Oakland near the 12th Street Center for BART–place called, imaginatively, Pho?.

93

To come to sailor’s defense, somewhat, on the language deal, I think he is only advocating teaching in a languge that was historically spoken in an area before the “anglos” took over. This would pretty much mean Amerind languages, Spanish and (maybe) French.

I’m not sure you could logically exclude newly formed ethnic communities from this special treatment, but I’ll let Sailor chime in if he is so inclined.

And once again, I’d like to caution agains using Amerind languages being taught on reservations as an alalogy. Reservations have a certain autonomy by law that no other region has.