Epic fantasies better than G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire

Cafe Society
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Inspired by this thread and, of course, the fact the new book’s out today.

Mr. hunter and I have pre-ordered the book and starting tonight we’ll be fighting over, I mean, reading it probably all our free hours until we’re done. So it’s not like we’re not GRRM fans (admittedly, mr. hunter more than I), but I thought I could come up with a long list of fantasies I thought were better.

…Until I actually tried. The list is rather smaller than I’d expected it to be:

-Daniel Abraham’s Long Price Quartet. I regularly recommend these books to friends with the statement, “It’s like GRRM, only with likeable characters!” This series, I think, fits the spirit of the demand the most, in that it’s very similar to GRRM, and I’d expect anyone who liked GRRM, but who found his writing style or continual grimdarkdarkdark a little lacking, to also like these books.

-Bujold’s Chalion books. They don’t really count as an epic series, in the sense that the books are only loosely related, but otherwise I think the writing and cohesiveness are much better than GRRM’s.

-Megan Whalen Turner’s Attolia books. The first (The Thief) is a fairly weak effort, but as they go on they get better and better, and the writing is awesome. While there’s a fair amount of violence, it’s not to the level of GRRM’s grimdark – they’re supposed to be YA books – so it’s not clear to me if I would rec it to someone who loved GRRM.

And then there’s McKillip’s Riddlemaster books, and of course Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings books, both of which I find far superior to GRRM, though I understand there can be informed disagreement on the subject (not hearing you la la la!) so I’m not listing them explicitly. And then there are Brust’s Vlad Taltos books and Cynthia Voigt’s Kingdom books, both of which I like much better than ASOIAF, which I think may be skewing my evaluation of their goodness.

And then there is KJ Parker’s Engineer trilogy, which I found more compelling than ASOIAF, although maybe not better per se. However, I’d recommend it to someone who liked GRRM.

What else? Rules: must be fantasy, must be epic (which I define as at least one fat book – Elantris, for example, would count, although I don’t think it’s better than GRRM myself – or two skinny books set in the same world and ideally with the same storyline).

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I could never get into the Riddlemaster books, though I’ve tried several times. I don’t like most of Brust’s Vlad books. I DON’T like Vlad, or most of the people he hangs out with. I did like Teckla very much, but I think that’s because I liked the kid that it was mostly about.

I do like Elizabeth Moon’s fantasies, though I don’t care for her SF nearly as much. I liked the Sheepfarmer’s Daughter trilogy, and the two prequels, and I bought and enjoyed the first of the new series set in that world.

I bought the Earthsea trilogy when it first came out, and that’s when I really started to enjoy fantasy. I even liked Tehanu, though apparently I’m one of a very few who do.

I like Robin Hobb’s books, too.

I’ll have to look at my shelves and report back with more.

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I think “loosely related” is giving it too much credit.

The first book, “The Curse of Chalion,” may be my favorite book of all time. I very rarely reread a book, and if I do, it’s almost always at least ten years since the last time. But I must have read TCOC at least six times in six years, and each time with great pleasure. Great story, great characters, great writing. An absolute delight.

The second, “Paladin of Souls,” is a worthy successor, but can’t match it. I have yet to find anything that can. I note that it won more awards than the first, and it may be that I liked the first better because the POV character is male, while in the second book, it’s female.

The third, “The Hallowed Hunt,” is the worst Bujold book I’ve ever read, and with her Vorkosigan series, I’ve read a dozen or more. “Worst Bujold” is still not bad in the grand scheme of things, but I didn’t see ANY connection to the first two books, other than a few lines that indicated it took place in the same region, and the story was not interesting to me at all. After soldiering through to the end, my impression was that she had a 3-book contract for the series, had shot her wad after the first two, and found a rejected manuscript from her teenage years that she made a few edits to and sent in. It’s just completely unworthy of the other two.

My two cents.

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Lynn, yeah, that’s why I put the Riddlemaster books in a sort-of parenthetical, because I know soooo many people who can’t get into them at all (and some, like me, who utterly adore them). And yes, Vlad is mostly not a very nice guy at all. But that “mostly not” beats out about 90% of GRRM’s characters :slight_smile:

EARTHSEA! How could I have forgotten that one! One of my all-time favorites! In my defense, I wasn’t looking at my bookshelf. I haven’t read Elizabeth Moon, but I’ve heard her name around and have meant to. I’ve read Robin Hobb, and like her, though not as much as some of my friends do.

brocks, in all honesty I mostly meant Curse, which is also one of my favorite books of all time. I liked Hallowed Hunt (which IIRC was set a very, very long time before either of the other two) and still think that Bujold at her worst still blows GRRM out of the water, but yeah, one I am not overly fond of. Though I’d also say that since you didn’t like that one, I dis-recommend Bujold’s Sharing Knife series to you (which I also thought was weak Bujold), or if you do read it, go in with low expectations.

(I wonder if the first book didn’t get as many awards also because it’s such an in-depth study of the effects of religion on a culture, which I found absolutely fascinating, but I could imagine one’s average award voter might not have found quite so amazing as I did.)

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I dunno what counts as “epic fantasy”, but I’ll throw two into the ring.

(1) The first two volumes of Gormenghast. Admittedly not everyone’s taste, but in my mind an absolute classic of fantasy, and quite epic - though only two books, they are both massive and create a fully-realised.

(2) Joe Abercrombie’s First Law series.

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I enjoyed Kate Elliott’s Crown of Stars, and Lynn Flewelling’s Tamir Trilogy both more than Song of Fire and Ice so far. I liked the Sevenwaters Triology by Juliet Marillier at least as well too though it might not be “epic” enough on the geographical scale.

I also really liked David Eddings (The Belgariad/The Malloreon series, The Elenium*/The Tamuli* series) but I was between 13 and 18 when I read them, so I’m sure that partially explains the enjoyment I took from them.

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I don’t know if it’s epic, but the Thieves’ World short stories captured my imagination 30 years ago.

Theft - Wikipedia’_World

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I haven’t read the Martin series, but I really liked Tad Williams’ Memory, Sorrow & Thorn, consisting of The Dragonbone Chair, The Stone of Farewell, and To Green Angel Tower.

Not so political and more personal adventure, but very epic. And hefty–When the third book came out in paperback, they made it two volumes.

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I came here to mention Memory, Sorrow, & Thorn but got beat to it by Saltire. I will add Williams’ Otherland tetrology.

In addition, The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson seems very promising.

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Yes. Sanderson is my next Martin, in that TWoK world is one that I’m going to be eagerly awaiting new books on. He did a very good job, I thought, on the last Wheel of Time book, too, and I’m eagerly awaiting the final one in that series, too.

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I’m a big fan of Steven Erikson’s Malazan Book of the Fallen series. It’s a very different type of fantasy from ASOIAF, though. Magic is definitely not a subtle force in Erikson’s world.

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I kind of want to start reading this series, but my ENTIRE LIBRARY SYSTEM has only one Malazan book…THE LATEST ONE! I’m serious about the entire system. I plug Erikson, Steven into the online card catalog and the only book that comes up is the one that just came out.

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I nominate R.A. MacAvoy’s *Raphael *trilogy and her two books about the Black Dragon.

It may not meet your definition of epic, but Poul Anderson’s *Three Hearts and Three Lions * remains one of my favorites.

Again, it’s a short book, but Alan Garner’s *The Weirdstone of Brisingamen *is one of the best fantasies I’ve ever read.

It’s not a particularly short book, but Lord Dunsany’s *The King of Elfland’s Daughter *would have to be considered.

Jack Vance would have to be considered with his Lyonesse trilogy and the Dying Earth books. So would Fritz Leiber’s Fafhrd the Barbarian and Grey Mouser books, at least the first five. The series went to hell after that.

Gene Wolfe’s *The Knight *is much better written that ASOFAI. It certainly qualifies as epic.

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I like them and they have the big advantage of being finished ( though count me as underwhelmed by the conclusion ). But having read them all, I have to say I prefer Martin. Erikson is good at creating characters, not so great at developing them IMHO.

Also I must say after reading it being played up here a lot, I was also slightly underwhelmed by The Curse of Chalion. Don’t get me wrong - I liked it as well. But it wasn’t as special as I had hoped after hearing all the praise. Another one I wouldn’t class as clearly better than Song of Ice and Fire, though it is certainly solid.

I think Scott Lynch’s incomplete Gentrleman Bastards is very fun in a Fritz Leiber sort of way, but with only two volumes out it is hard to judge how it will hold up.

Jack Vance’s Lyonesse Trilogy is another that appeals strongly to me. In some ways I prefer it to Martin as high fantasy, but it is almost ‘apples and oranges’ even in broad genre of fantasy.

But de gustibus non est disputandum. One of the things I like best about Martin’s world is all the dynastic intrigue. It’s the same reason I have a hard-on for niche computer games like Crusader Kings and thought the best part of the Lord of the Rings were the appendices.

ETA: redacted.

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Roger Zelazny’s “Chronicles of Amber” series … the first six books … is far better, far more imaginative, than anything else I’ve seen, and yeah, LOTR is included. Nobody else has ever written anything close to it. I haven’t read the Game of Thrones series, and won’t because I like following the series not knowing what will happen. But given that the GoT TV series is generally accorded to be a good adaptation of the books, I’d have to say the Chronicles of Amber probably beats it, too.

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Martin was involved with (edited) another series of books called “Wild Cards”. Each book was written by a different author, but the first 6 or 7 books were outstanding…very fun to read.

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I have not yet read Song of Fire and Ice, so I can’t say that these are better, but I can say that they are damn good. Also, these are books written for adults, unlike some of the candidates mentioned here (Eddings, I am looking at you.)

The Biography of Dom Manuel of Poictesme, by James Branch Cabell. OK, this is not exactly an epic, though the whole thing is pretty long, consisting of 25 works. The place to start is Jurgen, which was famously banned in Boston, making Cabell’s reputation. It is available on Gutenberg.

*The Worm Ouroboros *by E. R. Eddison. Skim the framing story and forget about it–the author does. Aptly described as a flawed masterpiece, you have to plow through the pseudo-Victorian prose and the odd names, but it is well worth it.

*Orlando Furioso *by Ludovico Ariosto. I wanted to include one of the *ur-*Epics as well. Read it in Italian or in a prose translation. It is…brilliant. One of the treasures of Western literature.

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Most of his best works are stand alone, but they are epic in scope, so I am going to suggest Guy Gavriel Kay. Like GRRM, he writes “low” fantasy–not a lot of magic, more alternate histories–but where his works are heart-wrenching, it’s because they are tragic, not just atrocious and extreme. The writing is more lyrical than say GRRM, which I guess turns some people off, but I really enjoy it.

My favorite is The Lions of Al-Rassan, a loose retelling of the story of El Cid, but I recommend pretty much all of them. A lot of people really like *Tigana *(which is sort of Renaissance-Italy inspired. The *Sarantium *books are inspired by Byzantine history and are particular favorites of mine.

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Some of the books were actually novels, but most were anthologies. Each author had a character or two. Sometimes an author would use another author’s character in his/her story, but most of the books were shared world anthologies. I think that Martin had at least one character of his own, but I could be wrong. It’s been a long, long time since I read the books.

And yeah, again, I read them when they first came out. Martin rebooted the series, to reflect a new generation, a few years ago.

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Epic fantasies better than G.R.R. Martin’s Song of Ice and Fire

All of them?

Seconding the Amber books. Also Cole and Bunch’s Anteros saga.