Erislover's witnessing thread

Well, spawned by an MPSIMS thread wherein I bared my views which were of a religious nature, some posters suggested I bring it here. While I am unaware of their motivation for that suggestion, it is one I had been considering for some time anyway. Actually, I had considered posting it in MPSIMS itself, but since it likely is a religious view or could be considered as one I suppose I’ll bow to inevitability and let it ride.

So here we go. I will forego telling it as it came to me which may distract from the idea itself.

There have been some possibly timeless questions in life, but even those all have a common source: the idea of “Why?” Why do people kill each other? Why is the night sky dark? Why are there wars? Why do we have to kill to live?

And as we travel along our world lines, quite a few people have stepped up with an answer, or at least a good way to avoid asking. We;ve had religions, scientists, philosophers-- all talking about what it means to be human; and, beign human, what that implies to humans.

In the end, however, we fail to even be able to meaningfully define something “obvious” like consciousness, life, or God. Or philosophers ond philosophic theists have failed many of us. Our scientists continue to plod along in explaining the universe by answering these simple questions with more complicated ones. Current theories tell us everything in essentially unpredictable and may or may not exist in more dimensions that we can isually imagine.

I think that avoids the issue. I think both William and his dutiful followers have misapplied the principle (need a shave, anyone?). Explanations themselves are superfluous. It is quite possible we will never know everything. It is very likely no individual can ever know I even if we as a civilization collectively can.

But I’m going to go farther than that. We cannot ever know everything. Because that is not The Point.

So when I was thinking about what the whole point of video games-- and all games in general were-- after some time it began to dawn on me. Our entire life has been a series of different games.

We spend our spare time (time not absolutely spent on survival) with games of some sort: politics, careers, further education, personal relationships. We form teams and compete for resources.

We spend what we would consider our spare time on gaming: philosophy, logic, mathematics, debate, cards, chess, more politics, more personal relationships…

The more I thought about it, the less I could explain without involving likening it to a game of some sort. As of the time of this writing I have yet to notice something that can’t be explained in terms of gaming mechanics, either in team form or a one-on-one (or one-on-many) form.

And I think I have a reason for this. Admittedly, it is one of those reasons which are “conveniently” untestable, so I expect to hear as much from the board. That’s fine. I think we as a race have accepted a ton of metaphysical baggage which cannot be tested; while I think many feel they don’t have faith (and I have agreed as much in the threads we’ve seen about it) I can say that not a single person can prove everything they believe. I don’t expect them to.

The reason we are a gaming group, the reason competition is a part of life, the reason why everything cannot be explained is this: we are in a game.

Not a typical game. Not a video game, not in some futuristic virtual reality diversion. A game through and through, however.

And what cinched it for me was a pretty simple postulate with no qualifiers and a distinct lack of completeness (heh): consciousness exists. No, it doesn’t exist in anything. No, I will not define what I actually mean by consciousness. I think that if you can post to this message board your conception of consciousness is sufficient for understanding what that means, when one combines it with a little imagination.

If you are only comfortable with thinking of consciousness existing as something you are already making the biggest mistake a game player can make: applying the rules of one game to another.

See, when you play chess, you don’t expect he other player to hold on 16 because “holding on 16” is meaningless in the context of chess. We similarly don’t expect shooting soldiers to debate on the subject of racial inequality. That;s not what one does in war.

Each context holds its own rules. I am saying that the biggest context is consciousness. For our concerns, it is a single consciousness. Why do I say that?

If you’ve gotten this far and have some understanding of pure consciousness, you may have had a hard time not picturing it being in something (maybe you haven’t, I don’t know). But we’e talking about a consciousness that is totally in nothing. And…it…is…bored.

So, like all good consciousnesses, it starts thinking. And thinking. And thinking. Can you see where I’m going with this? It’s probably pretty obvious by now…

Ok, don’t respond yet please… I was replying to a different thread while typing this up and this one’s submit button was under the other window and fuck fuck fuck…
I’ll finish quick, I promise… DAMN IT

Damn, that really threw me off. Well, what are ya gonna do.

Ok, so, where was I?

We are simply the creation of a Consciousness. For clarity, I think I will capitalize that from now on. For convenience in other matters, when I capitalize something like Consciousness, Universe, or accidental misspellings thereof I mean the meta kind, not what we are or what we live in. Ok?

OK. So this Consciousness is bored as hell and for diversion starts toying with some ideas. Ideas like what other consciousnesses like him would think, what it would be like to interact with them, what they could do through interaction, if they could do anything through interaction, yadda yadda yadda.

Through this the Consciousness realizes it has a bit of a problem. It isn’t what we would call happy. It realizes it is in some ways limited, and it needs a solution to that. So It starts thinking about that, how does something resolve a fundamental problem? A permanent lack of something? And It is thinking, and thinking, and thinking…

And these thoughts start having their own conclusions. And that conclusion is that the Consciousness simply doesn’t have the answer by direct thinking. It needs some aid to flesh out ideas about what happiness is all about. So it starts imagining other Consciousnesses and interacting with them. And more and more, and then It comes to another solution: it needs to simulate what it wants and see if there is a solution in that simulation. For if the solution cannot be found in a simpler form, making things more complicated isn’t going to solve anything.

So It makes us. For all intents and purposes, it makes a universe that is fundamentally limited. Just like It is. “We” may not have been the first try, and we may not be the last, but we are the only “we” we know so lets not clog it up with more than I already have. It makes us to run a Douglas Adams-esque program: solve the problem of temporary happiness in a fundamentally and permanently limited existence.

Unfortunately for us, this means living in a universe which is larger than we can immagine. It means having scientific problems which are fundamentally not answerable. It means not being able to simply create happiness through material things-- they are limited for us (and nonexistent for It). It means startin out in life totally helpless, and coming of age in suffering. It means inflicting some sort of suffering on ourself (for the Counsciousness created the problem which plagues it!). Basically, it means creating a situation which is diametrically opposed to happiness, but where happiness is not inconceivable.

Our job is to find it. As a whole. The entire human race’s purpose, The Point, is to be happy. Completely happy.

If we fail at this and everyone becomes fundamentally unhappy the universe ends. Game over. Time to switch discs and try Tetris instead of an RPG for a while. If we succeed then the universe ends. Game over, job well done, and the Consciousness is finally and completely happy. If we partially fail, we continue in a state of unhappiness dotted (or plastered, but only for some) with diversionary pleasures.


WHEW More thoughts coming but because of the accidental post I want to get this one out… [sup][sub]I hate that accidental post![/sub][/sup]

I didn’t even plan on posting this thing tonight SHEESH

I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at, but I just wanna say that I love the idea of a witnessing thread that pauses to say “fuck!” in the middle.

[going upstairs to put cold cloth on forehead]

:slight_smile:

“And somewhere between the time you arrive and the time you go
May lie a reason you were alive but you’ll never know.”
(Jackson Browne, For A Dancer)

[LIST][LIST][LIST][LIST][LIST][LIST][LIST]**May I also add BULL-SHIT
[LIST]…:cool:

When I saw the title “Erislover’s witnessing thread” I was expecting something more along the lines of :

A PRIMER FOR ERISIAN EVANGELISTS by Lord Omar

    The SOCRATIC APPROACH is most successful when confronting the

ignorant. The “socratic approach” is what you call starting an argument by
asking questions. You approach the innocent and simply ask “Did you know
that God’s name is ERIS, and that He is a girl?” If he should answer “Yes.”
then he probably is a fellow Erisian and so you can forget it. If he says
“No.” then quickly proceed to:
THE BLIND ASSERTION and say “Well, He Is a girl, and His name is
ERIS!” Shrewedly observe if the subject is convinced. If he is, swear him
into the Legion of Dynamic Discord before he changes his mind. If he does
not appear convinced, then proceed to:
THE FAITH BIT: “But you must have Faith! All is lost without
Faith! I sure feel sorry for you if you don’t have Faith.” And then add:
THE ARGUMENT BY FEAR and in an ominous voice ask “Do you know what
happens to those who deny Goddess?” If he hesitates, don’t tell him that he
will surely be reincarnated as a precious Mao Button and distributed to the
poor in the Region of Thud (which would be a mean thing to say), just shake
your head sadly and, while wiping a tear from your eye, go to:
THE FIRST CLAUSE PLOY wherein you point to all of the discord and
confusion in the world and exclaim “Well who the hell do you think did all
of this, wise guy?” If he says, “Nobody, just impersonal forces.” then
quickly respond with:
THE ARGUMENT BY SEMANTICAL GYMNASTICS and say that he is absolutely
right, and that those impersonal forces are female and that Her name is
ERIS. If he, wonder of wonders, still remains obstinate, then finally
resort to:
THE FIGURATIVE SYMBOLISM DODGE and confide that sophisticated people
like himself recognize that Eris is a Figurative Symbol for an Ineffable
Metaphysical Reality and that The Erisian Movement is really more like a
poem than like a science and that he is liable to be turned into a Precious
Mao Button and Distributed to The Poor in The Region of Thud if he does not
get hip. Then put him on your mailing list.

Or at least an offer to e-mail us all our official Pope cards.

Ah, kniz, i almost forgot about that style of posting. Good to see you not submit to The Man. If you could possibly elaborate on something… anything?

Ennui, I’d be happy to mail them out but for some reason the post office won’t accept my hempscript for postage. :confused: I would have posted that but for the fact that there isn’t much to talk about when you bring up Eris-- just toss out the second law of thermodynamics and the uncertainty principle and have them wrestle with that for a time while you calmly but passionately disbelieve the local paper and munch on a hot dog (complete with bun).

But hey-- the universe is conscious? Now that’s a topic that is both meaningless and fun to defeat. Now where did I put my Game Theory books? …

Seriously, we could get to Eris later… but I’ve got a funny feeling we won’t.

“Holy Cow and Wholly Chao”

Because you cannot think of anything which cannot be modeled (however imperfectly) with Game Theory, we are all gamepieces? Is that an accurate summary?

If someone can suggest a human activity which does not model well in Game Theory would you “convert” to something else (say, the Church of Bob?) Hey! I was just asking. Cut me some slack.

I’d hate to turn this into an argument about Game Theory, but I think that does sum it up in some ways. Understand that this is an explanation of why we act like gamepieces. What I quoted there seems to imply differently.

I would like to comment on my posts something which is probably not clear: we are both a diversionary creation and a tool. I am not clear whether or not the BigC considers us to be conscious, or just a simulation of it. It seems like it could go either way.


All posters in this thread are true and genuine popes, so treat them right good!

Not particularly… the whole gaming thing is what caused me to “realize” (take that, Fenris) that we are not just living in a universe with physical laws. There really is something to being human apart from evolutionary quirks.

erislover wrote:

To increase the odds of reproductive success for their own gene pools?

Because planets apparently tend to form in star systems with only one sun, meaning only one side of a planet will be brightly lit at any one time. Furthermore, the index of refraction of oxygen and nitrogen gas at 1 atmosphere ground-level pressure is too low to bend the sunlight around to the night side of the planet. (Note that this is not the case on Venus: the 90 atmosphere pressure carbon dioxide atmosphere bends the incoming sunlight so severely that the entire planetary surface is lit. Unfortunately, it’s also 900 degrees Fahrenheit and completely blanketed in sulfuric acid clouds, so life as we know it could not exist there.)

An extension of “why do people kill each other,” coupled with tribalism. (I.e., you scratch your neighbor’s back, he scratches yours. Strangers from other tribes are a potential threat to your tribe, plus they have all those swell resources you could use, so you have a double incentive to wipe them out.)

Because we’re not photosynthetic. If we were, we wouldn’t need to move around very much, and if we didn’t need to move around very much, we wouldn’t have much need to evolve a brain capable of asking “Why do we have to kill to live?”.

They’re not the most warm and fuzzy answers, but they’re the answers with the best evidence behind them.

Cite, please.

Not because I don’t believe you, just because that’s way cool.

Is that so? I find such an analysis very interesting. Not that I don’t agree with it of course, but I think you are missing the point.
Why is it light in my office right now? A: because you flipped a switch.

If you think this answers the question, then I suppose you are welcome to carry on smartly.

If you feels this answers the question, then you are welcome to carry on smartly.

I would have at least hoped someone would have pulled out the anthropic principle here.

Sorry, but I dodn’t think all wars can be reduced to “I don’t want my daughter mating with them so let’s kill 'em.” I think this both avoids and fails to answer the question.

Whew! Almsot let me down there without sneaking the anthropic principle in somewhere. I knew I could count on you tracer.

This is a very interesting answer, however, when we first remove the AP from it. “Why do we need to kill to live?” “Because we are not creatures who don’t need to kill to live.”

Now, honestly, does that sound like an answer acceptable to you? If you asked me, “erl, why is two to the xth power minus one prime?” (sorry couldn’t think of a real big prime number) and I answered, “Well tracer, it is because it is not a number that isn’t prime.”

And then the AP:
“Well, tracer, if our math were set up any differently you wouldn’t be asking that question.”
Fine, then don’t answer it in that scenario, but could you toss a dog a bone in this life?

Actually, I seem to remember some philosophers saying that since everything is philosophy, there must be a great big philosopher in the sky.

Shakespeare thought that all the world was a stage, and that we were only players.

But, I think this is the first time that I’ve ever heard of a big Referee in the sky.

Of course, Ultimate Frisbee has no referee. Maybe we’re all just supposed to call foul on ourselves.

Peace, Love, and Ultimate,
Me’Corva

<…xeno logs onto SDMB and begins browsing his favorite forum, steam lazily rising from his first cup of coffee…>

*Ah, here’s a thread from that entertaining whipper-snapper erislubber — and it’s a witnessing thread; this should be worth a look…

<click!>

Hmmm… (reading) search for truth… epistemology of reason, gotcha… avoids the issue, er, ok… because “Explanations …are superfluous”… wha? Where’s he goin’ with this? (continues reading) Ok, statement of agnosticism, check, followed immediately by… assertion that there is a point —wait, no; The point— which “knowing” is not part of…

<noisy slurp of coffee>

(continuing) so… ok; philosophy, math, logic, game theory, mmm hmm, thinks he has a reason for this – hey, now we’re gettin’ to it! (reads on eagerly) …we’re in a game.

<sip>

Ok, Rod Serling; let’s see whatchagot… (continues) …consciousness exists (well, duh!)… …context… oh, a single consciousness, so he’s postulating a creator god… whoops; not a creator god, just a consciousness, “totally in nothing”, heh heh…

…and it’s bored…

…fuck fuck fuck; check…

…and… we’re creations of the consciousness. shoot! Back to a creator god… hmmm… diversion… fundamental limitation… simulation… happiness not inconceivable (hey, that’s good news!)…

Ah, here we are; object of the game is… to be happy…

<xeno ponders for a bit over dregs of his coffee>

This really does evoke something in me… Now, what was it; something I’ve seen or heard before? Something I’ve discussed; something I’ve — Aha! Now I remember!

<picks up phone and dials; listens for a moment until—>

Hey, Bombadil; 's me, xeno. …Yeah, been a long time. …Say, I was just thinking about that time in the 70’s when we got those 12 bongs together and cleaned all the resin out of 'em… 'member that “theory” we came up with…? …wild days, man…

*<fade out to strains of Ravi Shankar>

One of the great traps of the foolhardy is to decide that because two things are sufficiently similar they are actually the same.

The urge to play is one every child is born with. Playing is practice for real life. This stays with us to some degree throughout our whole lives, and we play games and seek fun as amusement.

But, all those games are modelled somehow on some aspect of life: math, spacial relations, luck, social skills, cooperation, ruthlessness.

My daughter has a toy called an Intellitable. It makes games with colors, lights, and sounds, and goals as well. There are no written rules, but my daughter is able to pick up and understand the rules from the context and behavior of the games themselves. They have a surprisingly high level of complexity despite their intuitiveness.

She figures this out with no problem.

Why?

Because children are born curious, and seek to test and develop their skills. Games do this for them.

Games are models and tests for life. Not the other way around.

Possibly, at some point or another in your life you will encounter a moment in which what you are doing is not a game, but deadly serious.

When that happens, you will understand the difference. You will know Games are not a metaphor for life, but the other way around, and you will realize how imperfect and toned down they are, being, ultimately poor metaphors.

But, until you have such an experience(s) all you know is the metaphor. It’s understandable for you to think that’s all there is, just as my daughter playing tag with me thinks the game is end unto itself.

Explaining why things aren’t a game is kind of like trying to explain an orgasm to somebody that’s never had one. When you have one you’ll know.

Oh, and the purpose of life isn’t to be happy, either.

I don’t agree with this. My opinions regarding games and the vitally important play element in culture are heavily informed by Jan Huizinga’s Homo Ludens. It is a fabulous book for anyone interested in the subject of play and human life.

Games are a crucial part of life insofar as the creation of the game-world and the game’s rules help humans to react appropriately to conflict. Game-imposed limitations and rules provide procedural validation and vindication for the winner of a contest. Even cheating while maintaining the semblance of adherence to the rules is preferable to others than abandoning the rules altogether.

Games are a mutual hallucination in which conflict can be contained, controlled, and ultimately resolved. While pleasure is an important side effect of games, it does not necessarily have to be their goal.

And if happiness is not the guiding principle of life, what is then?

MR

Interesting idea, but I don’t think I was stating the opposite.

I think “deadly serious” is a matter of perspective. Scylla, I am doing more than just playing a game… I am in the game. It is deadly serious. When I die I really do die. Not being the player of The Game I don’t have access to a “reset button!”

I think had we created Pac Man to be a much more complex creation it would feel much the same way, see what I’m saying?

But note what I have called “games” in the OP and its half-brother: personal relationships, wars, some very serious things! These games aren’t a metaphor… they are just games. Everything we do has some rules to it, some we’ve made up ourselves (since they are our games) and some that have been made up for us (the whole laws of physics thing).

If I say that social ettiquette is essentially arbitrary does that make it any less serious or important to you?

I think it is an end in itself as well: diversion from what we would have to face without it.