Errors in the Torah and Septuagint - Fact or Fiction?

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
If you have access to the History Channel, they have a good show on the history of the idea of hell that you might find interesting. When perusing through the TiVo this morning, I think I saw that they’re going to show it again soon.

You’re assuming here that God wrote the scriptures, or dictated them to someone (or to several people) word for word. Some people do believe that, but some of us believe that the scriptures were inspired by people’s experience of God, but not literally written or dictated by God. I think of them as being like a student’s lecture notes from a class given by God. Anyone who has looked at a student’s lecture notes knows that they don’t necessarily get down what was said in class perfectly…

But couldn’t there be later errors that canceled out earlier ones? Someone could make the reverse of an earlier translation error, and then the newer version would be more accurate.
[/QUOTE]

I think I’ve seen the History Channel show on hell, but they almost always approach God from a secular point of view, so it gets kind of hard to watch because they get certain points wrong (my being anal is the likely problem).

What you say makes sense as a possibility. Nobody could prove otherwise. If Scripture is simply human in origin, then there’s really no other evidence that it isn’t based on Sumerian or Babylonian paganism. What sets Scripture apart is the “Divine”. God (YWHW) is the Creator of all existence and most gods don’t make that claim (some do).

I’m not able to say Scripture is the Word of God, only that my experience combined with Scripture’s assertion indicates it is to me.

I’m more concerned about what televangelist’s are spouting on cable TV and what the world believes about what Scripture actually says.

42

[QUOTE=cmkeller]
I’m rather certain that any Jew who labels himself Orthodox in any form does believe that the Torah was dictated letter-for-letter from G-d to Moses. I can’t say absolutely…there might be some more liberal congregations that take a less fundamentalist view and still call themselves some form of Orthodox. But I’d wager that there are very, very few, if any.
[/QUOTE]

That must have really sucked for Moses when God dictated the parts about Moses dying and being buried before ever getting to the holy land. Imagine having to write about your own future death and burial! I wonder if God capped Moses in the back of the head when he was done writing about it.

43

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
YHWH can exist and still not be the author of the Bible. The hypothetical existence of YHWH, in itself, has no necessary relevance to the truth or falsity of anything the Bible says about him. The imperfection of the Bible proves absolutely nothing about God.
[/QUOTE]

Technically you’re right. Logically though, the implication is there.

44

[QUOTE=sfworker]
If the Torah and Septuagint writings are not the Word of YWHW, there’s no other evidence to suggest that He exists.
[/QUOTE]

It’s YHVH or YHWH, not YWHW.

Other people find lots of evidence of the existence of God outside of the scriptures. Abdus Salam, Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, Johannes Kepler, and many other scientists find evidence of the existence of God in the workings of the universe or the existence of natural laws. Other religious thinkers find evidence of the existence of God in various things besides Scriptures (The Intelligent Design people find it in “irreducible complexity”- features in people, animals, etc that they say couldn’t have gotten there without an intelligent designer making them. That’s something they see as evidence of the existence of God that doesn’t come from Scriptures (they aren’t necessarily right or wrong, the point is that they see it as evidence of the existence of God, and it doesn’t come from Scriptures)). Maybe there’s no other evidence that you could believe, but there is what some people consider to be evidence of the existence of God outside of Scripture.

Now, that I can’t watch without :rolleyes: I’m afraid if I watched too much of it, they might roll out of my head.

45

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
It’s YHVH or YHWH, not YWHW.

I’m trying to work and still keep up with the posts, but that’s pretty bad. I didn’t even take the time to get His name right. Sometimes I wonder if He’d rather I didn’t tell people I know Him. Maybe I don’t…

Other people find lots of evidence of the existence of God outside of the scriptures. Abdus Salam, Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, Johannes Kepler, and many other scientists find evidence of the existence of God in the workings of the universe or the existence of natural laws. Other religious thinkers find evidence of the existence of God in various things besides Scriptures (The Intelligent Design people find it in “irreducible complexity”- features in people, animals, etc that they say couldn’t have gotten there without an intelligent designer making them. That’s something they see as evidence of the existence of God that doesn’t come from Scriptures (they aren’t necessarily right or wrong, the point is that they see it as evidence of the existence of God, and it doesn’t come from Scriptures)). Maybe there’s no other evidence that you could believe, but there is what some people consider to be evidence of the existence of God outside of Scripture.

Yes, there is wonder in the universe. But science does such a good job at explaining it, it takes the mystery out. Humans are somewhat poetic in nature by varying degree and it could be considered natural to be in awe of something other than ourselves. :slight_smile:

Now, that I can’t watch without :rolleyes: I’m afraid if I watched too much of it, they might roll out of my head.
[/QUOTE]

Smarmy comes to mind…

46

Apos:

Sure did. The Talmud says he wrote those last verse in tears.

47

[QUOTE=sfworker]
I always have to chuckle when I hear (or read) the statement:

“As with so many other issues of contradictions within the Bible”. This one is by Cecil/Dex.

My first thought is usually “Well, I haven’t lost one yet and I ain’t gonna start now…”
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=sfworker]
If you can find a flaw in His Book <as it was Inspired/written>, I would be really interested in a chance to challenge it.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=sfworker]
…
Where are the errors in the original Hebrew and Greek texts?
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=MEBuckner]
Yes. For example, the 26th chapter of the book of Ezekiel predicts that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy the city of Tyre, in what is now Lebanon, and that the city “would never be rebuilt”. And yet, there’s Tyre, right there on the evening news.

The Gospels of Matthew and Luke give completely different genealogies for Jesus (or more accurately, for Jesus’ stepfather, Joseph).
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
…
Among the various points raised by those who perceive errors in the texts are the apparent lack of historicity of the purported census of the “whole (Roman) world” in Luke, the discrepancies in the genealogies of Jesus (that not only disagree with each other, but do not clearly match the lists in genesis or chronicles), the errors in the names and chronologies of Chaldean and Persian kings and empires, the lack of evidence for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40 year sojourn in the desert, the lack of a viable city on the site of Jericho at the time that the invading Hebrews were supposed to have destoryed it.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=MEBuckner]
Where do you say that modern translations (such as the NIV, or for that matter older translations like the King James) differ from the Hebrew text of Ezekiel 26? Does the Hebrew text of Ezekiel 26 not indicate that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre? What would be a correct translation of the Greek texts of the genealogies in Matthew and Luke, that would avoid the obvious contradictions between those two passages?
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
You’ve already been offered numerous examples of factual errors and contradictions which exist in the original languages of the extant manuscripts. Do you have any explanations for them?
[/QUOTE]

sfworker, are you planning on getting back to your original question?

48

[QUOTE=sfworker]
You couldn’t be more wrong. That’s why I asked you to interpret the concept of hell.

You didn’t respond to the hell question so I don’t know what you believe, but as an example of errant teaching - every mainstream Christian church today promotes that the “acceptance” of Christ as your Savior is the only way to Heaven. It’s true to a degree, but there’s more to it than that.

Scripture teaches that Christ is the Savior of all mankind, not just those who believe it.

Directly related to the Book of Revelation is the meaning of “hell”. It’s the grave, not a fiery pit. When you look at Revelation literally you get “fiery pit”. Metaphorically it’s very different. God’s fire consumes works of the flesh and isn’t a literal fire. It’s a purifying fire.

John 3:16 “…and those who believe will not perish” The Greek word used is “apollumi” (destroy) the root of apollumi is “apo” (separation) and the base word is “olethros” which can mean ruin, destroy, death, but it also means “for the destruction of the flesh” or fleshly/earthly works.

I haven’t been in a church in 30 years that understands this.
[/QUOTE]

What churches have you been to? I was raised in a very fundamentalist Southern Baptist church, went through a brief Evangelical phase, and I’m now a mainline/liberal Protestant, and I was NEVER taught in ANY church I’ve been to that hell is a literal pit of fire. As a Southern Baptist and an Evangelical, I was told it was eternal separation from God, not a fiery pit- and this was coming from a Southern Baptist church that took the book of Revelation fairly literally (let’s just say that they used Jack Chick’s interpretation). As a mainline Protestant, well, most of the members of my current church don’t really believe in hell at all and have adopted Universalist stances rather than exclusivist ones. Granted, this is just one church out of the entire denomination (United Church of Christ), but there are plenty of other congregations both in and out of the denomination that feel the same way.

Virtually none of the mainline denominations, whether they believe in hell or not, interprets Revelation literally, and I don’t know what that has to do with belief in hell. There are other passages in the Bible that can be interpreted as referring to hell, even a fiery hell, although I and many others may disagree with such interpretations.

And as far as errors in the “original texts” go, it’s pretty much impossible to say simply because we don’t have the original texts anymore. Whatever we do have has gone through much recopying and rewriting. However, even if we go back to the oldest texts, we can find plenty of contradictions and scientific/historic inaccuracies. It’s completely possible to interpret the texts in a way that it doesn’t contradict itself, but you don’t need to go back to the oldest manuscripts to do that.

49

Sfworker:

Genesis 1 declares that plants (on the third day) and animals (on the fifth and sixth day) were created before humans (at the end of the sixth day), and that male and female humans were created at the same time.

Genesis 2 declares that God made man (when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up), then God made plants and animals, then made the first woman.

This is obviously a contradiction. Either God created plants before he created humans, or he created humans before he created plants.

Is it your contention that the original bible contained no such contradiction? That if we were to unearth the original Torah dictated by YHWH to Moses, we would find that in that version, Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 contained no chronological contradictions?

50

Sorry, forgot to add the classic…

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
…
Also, there are claims in the Bible which logically can’t be true, regardless of the existence of God. For instance, according to 1 Kings 7:23, the value of pi is 3. Obviously, even the existence of God can’t make pi=3.
[/QUOTE]

Please. I am genuinely interested in reading your arguments.

51

[QUOTE=sfworker]
Technically you’re right. Logically though, the implication is there.
[/QUOTE]
This what you said in the other thread –

You also said this–

How do you reconcile these statements with the assertion that a thing can be technically correct, but have different logical implications? If something is either true or false, how can it be correct in one sense but not in another? Why do you not respond to at least one of the questions concerning necessary contradictions in a work that you assert to be flawless? Why do you continue to reference the ‘original’ text, when an poster who can read said text (Diogenes the Cynic) disputes your statements, and you offer no such credentials in reply?

52

[QUOTE=sfworker]
An example of what I’m getting at would be the concept of hell. Todays church teaches that it’s an eternal pit of fiery horror and that’s not what Scripture says. Because that’s so contrary to what most Christians believe today, people generally think I’m off my nut for suggesting it’s an incorrect belief.

Hell is simply “the grave”. Nothing more, nothing less.

Another would be that the churches today generally teach that if you don’t “accept” Christ you’ll “burn” in hell for eternity. Scripture doesn’t “actually” teach that either.
[/QUOTE]

Since you keep saying “today’s church,” could you please point out the exact doctrinal differences among the following denominations? Please be specific and discuss them individually. Thank you.

(I have to leave many out to fit the space, but please don’t limit yourself.)

Albanian Catholic Church
Armenian Catholic Church
Belarusian Catholic Church
Bulgarian Catholic Church
Byzantine Catholic Church
Coptic Catholic Church
Croatian Greek Catholic Church
Ethiopian Catholic Church
Georgian Catholic Church
Greek Catholic Church
Hungarian Catholic Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
Latin Church
Maronite Catholic Church
Melkite Catholic Church
Romanian Catholic Church
Russian Catholic Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Slovak Catholic Church
Syrian Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church

American Catholic Church in the United States
Ancient Apostolic Communion
The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (Arian Catholic)
Catholic Apostolic National Church of Brazil
Catholic Apostolic National Church (U.S.)
Catholic Apostolic Church
Catholic Apostolic Church in North America (CACINA)
Celtic Catholic Church
Charismatic Episcopal Church
Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association
Free Catholic Church
Liberal Catholic Church
Mariavite Church
Old Catholic Church
Palmarian Catholic Church
Latin Episcopal Church of Brazil
Philippine Independent Church
Polish National Catholic Church
Sedevacantism
true Catholic Church

Orthodox Church of Constantinople: the Ecumenical Patriarchate
Orthodox Church of Mount Sinai
Orthodox Church of Finland
Orthodox Church of Estonia
Orthodox Church of Alexandria
Antiochian Orthodox Church
Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Western Rite Vicariate of the North American Archdiocese
Orthodox Church of Jerusalem
Russian Orthodox Church
Chinese Orthodox Church
Japanese Orthodox Church
Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Metropolia of Western Europe
Belorussian Orthodox Church
Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church
Serbian Orthodox Church
Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric
Romanian Orthodox Church
Bulgarian Orthodox Church
Cypriot Orthodox Church
Church of Greece
Polish Orthodox Church
Albanian Orthodox Church
Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church
Orthodox Church in America
Orthodox Syrian Church in India

Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)
Western Orthodox Church in America (WOCA)
Greek Old Calendarists
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Russian Old Believers
Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia
Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kiev Patriarchy)

Armenian Apostolic Church
Coptic Orthodox Church
Ethiopian Orthodox Church
Eritrean Orthodox Church
Indian Orthodox Church (“Malankara Syrian”)
Syrian Orthodox Church (“Jacobite Syrian”)

Church in Wales
Church of England
Church of Ireland
Church of Nigeria
Church of Uganda
Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East
Episcopal Church in the United States of America
Episcopal Church of Cuba
Episcopal Church of the Sudan
Hong Kong Sheng Kung Hui
Scottish Episcopal Church
Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church

African Orthodox Church
African Anglican Orthodox Church Worldwide
American Anglican Church
Anglican Catholic Church
Anglican Church in America
Anglican Church International Communion
Anglican Mission in America
Anglican Orthodox Church
Anglican Province of America
Anglican Province of Christ the King
Christian Episcopal Church
Church of England (Continuing)
Church of England in South Africa
Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches
Episcopal Missionary Church
Free Church of England
Free Protestant Episcopal Church
Reformed Episcopal Church
Southern Episcopal Church
United Episcopal Church

Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East (Assyrian Orthodox Church)
Chaldean Syrian Church of the East (in India)

American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC)
Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
Church of the Lutheran Confession
Concordia Lutheran Conference
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference
All Saints Lutheran Church of Nigeria - Nigeria
Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States
The Lutheran Church of Cameroon - Cameroon
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Malawi Conference - Malawi
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Zambia Conference - Zambia
Lutheran Confessional Church (Sweden and Norway) - Sweden and Norway
Lutheran Evangelical Christian Church (Japan) - Japan
Ukrainian Lutheran Church - Ukraine
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States
Evangelical Catholic Church
Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran
International Lutheran Council
China Evangelical Lutheran Church
Christian Evangelical Lutheran Church of Bolivia
Lutheran Church - Canada
Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
Laestadian Lutheran Church
Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ - USA
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Lutheran Church of New Zealand
Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA
Lutheran World Federation
Bolivian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Christian Lutheran Church of Honduras
Church of Denmark (Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark)
National Church of Iceland (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Iceland)
Church of Norway (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway)
Church of Sweden
Church of Iceland
Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia
Evangelical Church of the Lutheran Confession in Brazil
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Norway (Associate member)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Lutheran Church in Great Britain
Lutheran Costarican Church

Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Bible Presbyterian Church
Church of Scotland
Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches
Cumberland Presbyterian Church
Evangelical Presbyterian Church
Evangelical Presbyterian Church in England and Wales
Evangelical Presbyterian Church of Australia
First Presbyterian Church of Buffalo, New York
Free Church of Scotland
Free Church of Scotland Continuing
Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland
Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster
Korean Presbyterian Church in America
Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Presbyterian Church in America
Presbyterian Church USA
Presbyterian Reformed Church
Presbyterian Reformed Church (Australia)
Reformed Presbyterian Church of Australia
Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland
Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America
Reformed Presbytery in North America
United Free Church of Scotland
Westminster Presbyterian Church

Canadian and American Reformed Churches
Christian Reformed Church in North America
Christian Reformed Churches of Australia
Church of Lippe
Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches
Congregational Federation of Australia
Dutch Reformed Church
Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches
Federation of Reformed Churches
Fellowship of Congregational Churches (Australia)
Free Reformed Churches of North America
Heritage Reformed Congregations
Huguenots (extinct as a modern and distinct group)
Hungarian Reformed Church in America
Orthodox Christian Reformed Church
Protestant Reformed Churches in America
Reformed Christian Church in Croatia
Reformed Church in America
Remonstrant Brotherhood
United Church of Christ
United Congregational Church of Southern Africa
United Reformed Church
United Reformed Churches in North America

Anabaptists
Amish
Beachy Amish
Nebraska Amish
Old Order Amish
Swartzendruber Amish
Hutterites
Bruderhof Communities
Mennonites
Alliance of Mennonite Evangelical Congregations
Anabaptist Association of Australia and New Zealand
Brethren in Christ
Chortitzer Mennonite Conference
Church of God in Christ, Mennonite (aka Holdeman Mennonites)
Conservative Mennonite Conference
Evangelical Mennonite Church
Evangelical Mennonite Conference
Evangelical Mennonite Mission Conference
Fellowship of Evangelical Bible Churches (formerly Evangelical Mennonite Brethren)
Mennonite Brethren Churches
Canadian Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
Japan Mennonite Brethren Conference
US Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
Mennonite Church Canada
Mennonite Church in the Netherlands
Mennonite Church USA
Old Order Mennonites
Swiss Mennonite Conference

African Methodist - Southern Africa
African Methodist Church - Zimbabwe
African Methodist Episcopal Church
African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
Bible Methodist Church
British Methodist Episcopal Church
Central Congo United Methodist Church
Chinese Methodist Church
Chinese Methodist Church - Australia
Christian Methodist Episcopal Church - Dallas, TX
Congregational Methodist Church
Church of Christ - Hong Kong & Peoples Republic of China
Church of North India
Church of Pakistan
Church of South India
Church of the Nazarene - Kansas City, MO
Evangelical Church
Evangelical Church of the Dominican Republic
Evangelical Church of Uruguay
Evangelical Methodist Church
Evangelical Methodist Church of Argentina
Evangelical Methodist Church of Bolivia
Evangelical Methodist Church of Costa Rica
Evangelical Methodist Church of Panama
Evangelical Methodist Church of Philippines
Evangelical Methodist Church of Portugal
Evangelical Methodist Community - Paraguay
The Evangelical Church - Spain
Evangelical United Church - Ecuador
Finnish United Methodist Church - Finland
The Free Methodist Church - North America
Free Wesleyan Church - Tonga
Fellowship of Independent Methodist Churches
Fundamental Methodist Conference, Inc.
Independent Methodist Church
Korean Methodist Church
Methodist Church, Hong Kong
Methodist Church in Ireland
Methodist Church in Singapore
Methodist Church of Bangladesh
Methodist Church of Brazil
Methodist Church of the Caribbean and Americas
Methodist Church of Chile
Methodist Church of Colombia
Methodist Church of Cuba
Methodist Church of Fiji and Rotuma
Methodist Church of Ghana
Methodist Church of Great Britain
Methodist Church of Hong Kong & Peoples Republic of China
Methodist Church of India
Methodist Church of Indonesia
Methodist Church of Italy
Methodist Church of Kenya
Methodist Church of Korea
Methodist Church of Malaysia
Methodist Church of Mexico Iglesia Metodista de México, Sitio Oficial
Methodist Church of (Lower) Myanmar
Methodist Church of (Upper)Myanmar
Methodist Church of New Zealand
Methodist Church of Nigeria
Methodist Church of Peru
Methodist Church of Puerto Rico
Methodist Church of Republic of China
Methodist Church of Samoa
Methodist Church of Sierra Leone
Methodist Church of Southern Africa
Methodist Church of Sri Lanka
Methodist Church of Togo
Methodist Church of Zimbabwe
North Katanga United Methodist Church - Kitwe Zambia
Primitive Methodist Church
Protestant Methodist Church - Benin
Protestant Methodist Church - Côte d’Ivoire
Salvation Army
South Congo United Methodist Church
Swedish United Methodist Church - Finland
United Church - Zambia
The United Church of Canada
United Church of Christ of Philippines
United Methodist Church
United Protestant Church - Belgium
Uniting Church of Australia
The Wesleyan Church - Indianapolis, IN
Wesleyan Reform Union
West Africa African Methodist - Philadelphia PA
West African Methodist Church - Sierra Leone

Apostolic Christian Church
Bible Fellowship Church
Christian & Missionary Alliance
Christian’s Missionary Church
Church of Christ (Holiness) U.S.A.
Church of God (Anderson)
Church of God (Guthrie, Oklahoma)
Church of God (Holiness)
Churches of God General Conference (Winebrenner)
Church of the Nazarene
Evangelical Covenant Church
Missionary Church
United Christian Church

Alliance of Baptists
American Baptist Association
American Baptist Churches USA
Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland
Association of Grace Baptist Churches
Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
Association of Regular Baptist Churches
Baptist Bible Fellowship International
Baptist Conference of the Philippines
Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec
Baptist Convention of Western Cuba
Baptist General Conference (formally Swedish Baptist General Conference)
Baptist General Conference of Canada
Baptist General Convention of Texas
Baptist Missionary Association of America
Baptist Union of Australia
Baptist Union of Great Britain
Baptist Union of New Zealand
Baptist Union of Scotland
Baptist Union of Western Canada
Baptist World Alliance
Bible Baptist
Canadian Baptist Ministries
Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
Central Baptist Association
Central Canada Baptist Conference
Christian Unity Baptist Association
Colored Primitive Baptists
Conservative Baptist Association
Conservative Baptist Association of America
Conservative Baptists
Continental Baptist Churches
Convención Nacional Bautista de Mexico
Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
European Baptist Convention
European Baptist Federation
Evangelical Baptist Mission of South Haiti
Evangelical Free Baptist Church
Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada
Free Will Baptist Church
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
General Association of Baptists
General Association of General Baptists
General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
General Six-Principle Baptists
Ghana Baptist Convention
Global Independent Baptist Fellowship
Grace Baptist Assembly
Independent Baptists
Independent Baptist Church of America
Independent Baptist Fellowship International
Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
Landmark Baptist Church
Liberty Baptist Fellowship
Myanmar Baptist Convention
National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
New England Evangelical Baptist Fellowship
New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
Nigerian Baptist Convention
North American Baptist Conference
Norwegian Baptist Union
Old Baptist Union
Old Regular Baptists
Old Time Missionary Baptists
Primitive Baptists
Progressive Baptists
Progressive National Baptist Convention
Reformed Baptists
Regular Baptist Churches, General Association of
Regular Baptists
Separate Baptists
Separate Baptists in Christ
Seventh Day Baptists
Sierra Leone Baptist Convention
Southeast Conservative Baptists
Southern Baptist Convention
Southern Baptists of Texas
Sovereign Grace Baptists
Strict Baptists
Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
Union d’Églises baptistes françaises au Canada
United American Free Will Baptist Church
United American Free Will Baptist Conference
United Baptist Convention of the Atlantic Provinces
United Baptists
United Free Will Baptist
Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
World Baptist Alliance
World Baptist Fellowship

Church of the United Brethren in Christ
Plymouth Brethren
Open Brethren
Exclusive Brethren
Indian Brethren
Kerala Brethren
River Brethren
Brethren in Christ Church
Old Order River Brethren
United Zion Church
Church of the Brethren
Conservative Grace Brethren Churches, International
Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches
Old German Baptist Brethren
Old Order German Baptist Brethren
The Brethren Church (Ashland Brethren)
Social Brethren

Catholic Apostolic Church
Restored Apostolic Mission Church
New Apostolic Church
United Apostolic Church

Abundant Life Worship Centers
Apostolic Assemblies of Christ
Apostolic Church of Pentecost of Canada
Apostolic Faith Church
Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa
Assemblies of God
Assembly of Pentecostal Churches of Jesus Christ
Bible-Pattern Church Fellowship
Calvary Holiness Association
Charismatic Episcopal Church
Christ Apostolic Church
Christian City Churches
Christ Gospel Churches International
Christian Church of North America
Christian Congregation of Brazil
Christian Outreach Centre
Christian Revival Crusade
Church of God of the Union Assembly
Church of the Little Children of Jesus Christ
Congregational Holiness Church
CRC Churches International
Destiny Church
Elim Fellowship
Elim Pentecostal Church
Fire Baptized Holiness Church of God of the Americas
God is Love Pentecostal Church
Holiness Baptist Association
House of Prayer Christian Church
Independent Assemblies of God, International
International Church of the Foursquare Gospel
International Pentecostal Church of Christ
International Pentecostal Holiness Church
Ministers Fellowship International
New Life Churches
New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc
Open Bible Standard Churches (association of autonomous churches)
Pentecostal Mission
Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada
Pentecostal Assemblies of Newfoundland
Pentecostal Church of God
Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church
Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches of North America
Pentecostal Churches of the Apostolic Faith
Pentecostal World Conference
Redeemed Christian Church of God
The Revival Fellowship
The Church of God (Jerusalem Acres)
The Church of God for All Nations
The Fellowship (FGFCMI)
United Gospel Tabernacles
United Holy Church of America
United Pentecostal Churches of Christ
Zimbabwe Assemblies of God Africa (ZAOGA)

Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus
Apostolic Brethren
Apostolic Church of the Faith in Jesus Christ
Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God
Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ
Bible Way Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ
Church of Jesus Christ of Prophecy
Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith
House of Prayer Christian Church
International Church of Jesus Christ
Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
Potter’s House Christian Fellowship
United Pentecostal Church International

Charismatic Episcopal Church
Full Gospel
New Frontiers
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Vineyard Movement
Catholic Charismatic Renewal

Calvary Chapel
Church of Christ, Instrumental (Kelleyites)
Christian City Church (“CCC” or “C3i”)
City Harvest Church
Eternal Grace
Evangelical Covenant Church of America (“Swedish Evangelical Mission Covenant”)
Evangelical Free Church of America (EFCA)
Fellowship of Fundamental Bible Churches
Grace Movement Churches
Great Commission Association
Greater Grace World Outreach
Hope Church Singapore
Indian Shakers
Jesus Movement

Metropolitan Community Churches
New Frontiers (formerly New Frontiers International)
Schwenkfelder Church

53

[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
Yes. The Orthodox believe that God dictated the Torah to Moses.
[/QUOTE]

:dubious: Even Deuteronomy 34:7, which recounts Moses’ death?

54

[QUOTE=sfworker]
An example of what I’m getting at would be the concept of hell. Todays church teaches that it’s an eternal pit of fiery horror and that’s not what Scripture says. Because that’s so contrary to what most Christians believe today, people generally think I’m off my nut for suggesting it’s an incorrect belief.

Hell is simply “the grave”. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/QUOTE]

Once at a garage sale many years ago, I saw a couple of vinyl records of sermons by Jack van Impe. One was titled, “Hell Is Not the Grave.” Stuck in my mind – apparently your interpretation comes up often enough that some evangelicals go to the trouble of refuting it.

55

BrainGlutton:

Difference of opinion in the Talmud. Some say that G-d did indeed dictate it to him to write in a prophetic manner; some say the last eight verses of Deuteronomy were written by Joshua.

56

[QUOTE=sfworker]
You didn’t respond to the hell question so I don’t know what you believe, but as an example of errant teaching - every mainstream Christian church today promotes that the “acceptance” of Christ as your Savior is the only way to Heaven. It’s true to a degree, but there’s more to it than that.
[/QUOTE]
You are entirely wrong on this point. The Catholic Church teaches that all humans are called to be saved and that an explicit acceptance of Jesus is not some sort of arbitrary condition to keep other people out. The Catechism explicitly discusses the salvation of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and others in sections 839 through 845.

I did not respond to your question because it is not relevant. You made a specific claim regarding the book of Revelation and (all) Christian churches which is in error. Regardless of my personal beliefs, no mainstream Christian church other than a limited number of Evangelicals/Fundamentalists treat that work literally.

You have now changed the point of discussion to one of (in)errancy, but that is simply a dodge away from your original claim. If you choose to believe that the bible (as written) contians no errors, you are welcome to that belief, but making claims against faiths not your own that are in error is a violation of the principle of the Straight Dope[sup]®[/sup]: we’re supposed to be fighting ignorance, not promoting it. Spreading false claims about what other people believe is an exercise in ignorance.

You are free to challenge the beliefs of whichever religious group you choose. I do not get into fights over which beliefs are true. You are not free to make up claims about other people’s beliefs that are different than the beliefs those people actually hold.

Your claim that (most? all?) churches read Revelation literally is demonstrably false. You may think that their beliefs are still in error, but it is a factual error to claim that they accept it literally (your word).
Your claim that all mainstream Christian churches demand an acceptance of Jesus for salvation is demonstrably false (and I have provided the citation to demonstrate your error). You may have beliefs that differ from those churches and you may believe those churches to be in error, but it is a false statement to claim that they believe something when, by their words, they clearly believe something different.

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[QUOTE=cmkeller]
BrainGlutton:

Difference of opinion in the Talmud. Some say that G-d did indeed dictate it to him to write in a prophetic manner; some say the last eight verses of Deuteronomy were written by Joshua.
[/QUOTE]
Or, to paraphrase the sea captain in “Black Adder, ‘Potato’,” when questioned about whether a crew was de rigeur for such a long sea voyage, “Opinion is divided. All of the other capains say it is. I say it isn’t.”

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[QUOTE=sfworker]
No. The truth of Scripture proves God. It’s our only evidence of Him. “god” can exist, but if Scripture has “never” been perfect, then logically “God” is not perfect and the most he could be is “god”. YWHW is God (to me). He is not Allah or Buddha or Krishna. The Torah and Septuagint are Testaments of YWHW, not Allah, Buddha or Krishna. If the Torah and Septuagint writings are not the Word of YWHW, there’s no other evidence to suggest that He exists.
[/QUOTE]

  1. The Tetragrammaton goes YHVH (or YHWH), not YWHW.

  2. Any Muslim would insist Yahweh and Allah are different names for the same being. (Allah is simply Arabic for “the God”; Arabic-speaking Christians use that name when they pray.)

  3. It is possible that the true God of the universe is a being with absolutely no connection to the God described in the Bible (nor the Koran).

3a. Furthermore, it is possible that Yahweh/Allah exists, and really did talk to Abraham/Moses/Jesus/Mohammed – but he still is not the Supreme Being, he lied about that part; there is another above him. (I think the Gnostics used to believe something of the kind.)

  1. It is possible that the true God of the universe is an imperfect being. Not every definition of “God” requires perfection as an attribute. If he’s all-powerful and created the universe, doesn’t that make him God, even if he’s imperfect?

  2. The Bible is not evidence of God’s existence, it merely asserts it. If “the truth of Scripture proves God,” what proves the truth of Scripture?

  3. And no, there is no other evidence to suggest God exists. There are various philosophical arguments for God’s existence, but all of them are basically flawed, and all apply to God only in the abstract – none can even purport to prove the existence of the Bible’s God, or the God of any particular religious tradition or revelation. (See 3, above.) E.g., you might (be foolish enough to) accept the Ontological Argument, that God is the Perfect Being by definition (see 4), therefore must exist because nonexistence would be an imperfection; but no way can you infer from that anything else about the truth of the Bible’s story, such as the original sin of Eve and Adam, the necessity of the death of Jesus as a human sacrifice to redeem that sin, etc.

  4. Face it. You believe in God (and in the Scripture) because you want to. That’s called a leap of faith – believing something even though the evidence for it appears insufficiently conclusive even to the believer. All faith is a form of wishful thinking. Wishful thinking is not always wrong, but it is always suspect, and you don’t need to be any philosopher to see why. In any case, it’s all you’ve got.

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[QUOTE=sfworker]
My position is that the translations of the original Hebrew and Greek texts are riddled with errors and heavily misinterpreted today to the point that the things people believe are pure fantasy.

Going back to the original texts (as best I can) exposes the truth and it’s a far cry from what the churches are teaching.

It was suggested that even the original texts are prone to errors, which would suggest that God is a myth, but so far I haven’t seen any evidence of these erros -* in the original text*.
[/quote]

Maybe someone can help me out with this one, but I’ve seen a passage in the Bible which appears (to me) to say that insects have four legs. Anyone know the Greek version of Leviticus 11:21-23? In the KJV, it goes

This may not be what sfworker is going for, but to my eyes it appears to be a blatant factual error in the Bible.

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[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
:dubious: Even Deuteronomy 34:7, which recounts Moses’ death?
[/QUOTE]

. . . Read whole thread before posting . . .