Errors in the Torah and Septuagint - Fact or Fiction?

Great Debates
81

[QUOTE=ThePCapeman]
The Bible is as difficult to disprove as it is to prove? More later? How disappointing. This thread and its predecessor are a challenge to show error and contradiction - an arena in which you claim to be undefeated. Can you be more persuasive in your argument or is the stalemate of “a possible solution” the best we can expect?
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but I was just as disappointed. I haven’t heard anything new yet. I asked for errors and inaccuracies and you complied. As soon as I get the chance I’ll dig out the responses to the points made. I can usually just cut and paste. I was looking for something meatier though - loftier concepts.

(Technically the statement “The Bible is full of errors” was the original challenge, although probably unintentional. Wouldn’t you expect the onus to be there?)

82

[QUOTE=sfworker]
That’s actually quite funny. I identify with St. Augustine’s sense of overwhelming guilt. We part ways on the damnation of humanity doctrine though.
[/QUOTE]

It’s a limited conventional connection, though; the Augustinian paradigm was logarithmic to the curve of increasing identity vis-a-vis the trinitarian ideal. Pre-Galilean identity formation on the Hebraic historiography is better defined. Inconsistencies are simply the psychological “folding” of an erratic assimilation imposed on a societal autonomy.

83

[QUOTE=Lemur866]
You have misunderestimated me, because I don’t understand your position.

I’m not asking to trap you, I’m asking because I don’t understand your position.

Is the bible innerrant, or not? You have stated that it is.

Are translations of the Bible innerrant? You have stated that they are NOT, translations do have errors.

But I don’t understand if you think the Hebrew Torah that sits in every Jewish synagoge is an innerrant original bible, or a corrupted translation.

Do you believe the current Hebrew Torah is the original inerrant Bible, yes or no?
[/QUOTE]

Yes.

I’ve said that:

  1. I believe in God.
  2. I believe God is perfect
  3. The next logical conclusion is that His Word is perfect - but with a caveat…

Logically a Sovereign, Omnipotent, Omnipresent God would not do anything imperfectly. If God exists and the Torah is His Inspired Word, is it logical to think it would be imperfect?

I do believe that there are logical answers to the few examples presented here and I’ll attempt to resolve as best I can.

Am I ever wrong? Almost always.

If God doesn’t exist, then I’m certainly wrong, but my belief isn’t nearly as relevent to this thread as “what” Scripture actually says. That’s the crux. I can’t prove God, only what His Word says.

84

[QUOTE=cmkeller]

OK, seriously, Zoroastrianism would be considered idolatry according to Judaism. For one thing, they believe the world is controlled by two entities (one good, one evil) who are independent of one another. In addition, they believe their dieties have some physical form or manifestation. Both these points are incompatible with the Jewish conception of G-d.
[/QUOTE]

Just for the record, there are some people who think that Zoroastrianism was at one point much more monotheistic than it is now, and I’ve seen some speculation in some Orthodox sources that that’s why Cyrus was so good to the Jews…because at that time, at least, Zoroastrinism was a monotheistic, Noachide religion (and fighting against the pagan beliefs of the older Persian religion).

85

I declare Bryan Ekers the winner of this thread.

86

[QUOTE=Gorsnak]
I declare Bryan Ekers the winner of this thread.
[/QUOTE]

Seconded!

87

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Then we are agreed that yyou falsely posted something quite different when you saidRather, you have a vague grocery list of complaints about any number of Christian denominations that you will trot out at random because you are either unable or unwilling to stick to your own topic as delineated by the OP. And once you think you have an opening, you go on with further irrelevant meanderings such as
Well, perhaps you are not dodging issues and are, instead, simply incapable of actually addressing an issue, even when you raise it.

You asked whether any errors could be found in Scripture. You have been shown multiple errors in Scripture that cannot be passed off as errors of translation–they exist in the original language versions. Once we addressed those issues, you wandered away from your own Original Post question and began throwing odd bits of personal belief into the mix (including several errors of fact of your own, as I have demonstrated and you have acknowledged).

Having read your last couple of posts, I suspect that this thread will shortly come to an impasse. You are going to insist that external evidence cannot be used to demonstrate errors in Scripture and, when contradictions are discovered within Scripture, you will fall back on the failure of “true understanding.”

That is fine. You are welcome to witness for your beliefs in this Forum. However, no one else has a requirement to accept your unsupported (and insupportable) beliefs, just on your say so.

Since you are pursuing a different question than the one you posted in the OP–a question I have no interest in hashing out–I will bow out of this discussion.
I do hope that you and your many opponents come to recognize (not necessarily agree with) the separate and distant perspectives each brings to the thread and that it winds down gently and in courtesy, but I hope for alot of things that will never happen.
[/QUOTE]

“Then we are agreed that yyou falsely posted something quite different when you said”

You’re going to have to explain your conclusion. Your logic isn’t obvious.

“you have a vague grocery list of complaints about any number of Christian denominations that you will trot out at random because you are either unable or unwilling to stick to your own topic as delineated by the OP.”

This statement must have some weak connection to our conversation, but sounds more like the opinion regarding someone you think you know. You don’t. Trust me. My “grocery list” is anything but vague and more importantly it’s not my list.

“You are going to insist that external evidence cannot be used to demonstrate errors in Scripture and, when contradictions are discovered within Scripture, you will fall back on the failure of “true understanding.””

The wise and prophet that you are, your evaluation is decidedly off the mark. Like it or not.

“Since you are pursuing a different question than the one you posted in the OP”

Not very perceptive. It’s all the same thing.

“I will bow out of this discussion.”

Imagine my disappointment. I think your intellect is sufficient, but your heart needs some work…ta

88

[QUOTE=sfworker]
Yes.

I’ve said that:

  1. I believe in God.
  2. I believe God is perfect
  3. The next logical conclusion is that His Word is perfect - but with a caveat…
    [/quote]

Your third step includes an excluded middle. You are assuming that the Christian Bible is “His Word,” but you have established no grounds for doing so. You have to be more careful than that around here.

Also I will give you a respectful fair warning that you should expect your cut and paste boilerplate defenses to the the errors will probably get eviscerated. I’m already quite familiar with all of them, as are a number of others around here. Don’t expect that you’re going to surprise us with anything.

89

[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase]
Since you keep saying “today’s church,” could you please point out the exact doctrinal differences among the following denominations? Please be specific and discuss them individually. Thank you.

(I have to leave many out to fit the space, but please don’t limit yourself.)

Albanian Catholic Church
Armenian Catholic Church
Belarusian Catholic Church
Bulgarian Catholic Church
Byzantine Catholic Church
Coptic Catholic Church
Croatian Greek Catholic Church
Ethiopian Catholic Church
Georgian Catholic Church
Greek Catholic Church
Hungarian Catholic Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
Latin Church
Maronite Catholic Church
Melkite Catholic Church
Romanian Catholic Church
Russian Catholic Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Slovak Catholic Church
Syrian Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church

American Catholic Church in the United States
Ancient Apostolic Communion
The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (Arian Catholic)
Catholic Apostolic National Church of Brazil
Catholic Apostolic National Church (U.S.)
Catholic Apostolic Church
Catholic Apostolic Church in North America (CACINA)
Celtic Catholic Church
Charismatic Episcopal Church
Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association
Free Catholic Church
Liberal Catholic Church
Mariavite Church
Old Catholic Church
Palmarian Catholic Church
Latin Episcopal Church of Brazil
Philippine Independent Church
Polish National Catholic Church
Sedevacantism
true Catholic Church

Orthodox Church of Constantinople: the Ecumenical Patriarchate
Orthodox Church of Mount Sinai
Orthodox Church of Finland
Orthodox Church of Estonia
Orthodox Church of Alexandria
Antiochian Orthodox Church
Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Western Rite Vicariate of the North American Archdiocese
Orthodox Church of Jerusalem
Russian Orthodox Church
Chinese Orthodox Church
Japanese Orthodox Church
Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Metropolia of Western Europe
Belorussian Orthodox Church
Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church
Serbian Orthodox Church
Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric
Romanian Orthodox Church
Bulgarian Orthodox Church
Cypriot Orthodox Church
Church of Greece
Polish Orthodox Church
Albanian Orthodox Church
Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church
Orthodox Church in America
Orthodox Syrian Church in India

Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA)
Western Orthodox Church in America (WOCA)
Greek Old Calendarists
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Russian Old Believers
Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia
Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kiev Patriarchy)

Armenian Apostolic Church
Coptic Orthodox Church
Ethiopian Orthodox Church
Eritrean Orthodox Church
Indian Orthodox Church (“Malankara Syrian”)
Syrian Orthodox Church (“Jacobite Syrian”)

Church in Wales
Church of England
Church of Ireland
Church of Nigeria
Church of Uganda
Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East
Episcopal Church in the United States of America
Episcopal Church of Cuba
Episcopal Church of the Sudan
Hong Kong Sheng Kung Hui
Scottish Episcopal Church
Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church

African Orthodox Church
African Anglican Orthodox Church Worldwide
American Anglican Church
Anglican Catholic Church
Anglican Church in America
Anglican Church International Communion
Anglican Mission in America
Anglican Orthodox Church
Anglican Province of America
Anglican Province of Christ the King
Christian Episcopal Church
Church of England (Continuing)
Church of England in South Africa
Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches
Episcopal Missionary Church
Free Church of England
Free Protestant Episcopal Church
Reformed Episcopal Church
Southern Episcopal Church
United Episcopal Church

Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East (Assyrian Orthodox Church)
Chaldean Syrian Church of the East (in India)

American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC)
Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
Church of the Lutheran Confession
Concordia Lutheran Conference
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference
All Saints Lutheran Church of Nigeria - Nigeria
Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States
The Lutheran Church of Cameroon - Cameroon
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Malawi Conference - Malawi
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Zambia Conference - Zambia
Lutheran Confessional Church (Sweden and Norway) - Sweden and Norway
Lutheran Evangelical Christian Church (Japan) - Japan
Ukrainian Lutheran Church - Ukraine
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States
Evangelical Catholic Church
Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran
International Lutheran Council
China Evangelical Lutheran Church
Christian Evangelical Lutheran Church of Bolivia
Lutheran Church - Canada
Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
Laestadian Lutheran Church
Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ - USA
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Lutheran Church of New Zealand
Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA
Lutheran World Federation
Bolivian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Christian Lutheran Church of Honduras
Church of Denmark (Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark)
National Church of Iceland (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Iceland)
Church of Norway (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway)
Church of Sweden
Church of Iceland
Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia
Evangelical Church of the Lutheran Confession in Brazil
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Norway (Associate member)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Lutheran Church in Great Britain
Lutheran Costarican Church

Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Bible Presbyterian Church
Church of Scotland
Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches
Cumberland Presbyterian Church
Evangelical Presbyterian Church
Evangelical Presbyterian Church in England and Wales
Evangelical Presbyterian Church of Australia
First Presbyterian Church of Buffalo, New York
Free Church of Scotland
Free Church of Scotland Continuing
Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland
Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster
Korean Presbyterian Church in America
Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Presbyterian Church in America
Presbyterian Church USA
Presbyterian Reformed Church
Presbyterian Reformed Church (Australia)
Reformed Presbyterian Church of Australia
Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland
Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America
Reformed Presbytery in North America
United Free Church of Scotland
Westminster Presbyterian Church

Canadian and American Reformed Churches
Christian Reformed Church in North America
Christian Reformed Churches of Australia
Church of Lippe
Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches
Congregational Federation of Australia
Dutch Reformed Church
Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches
Federation of Reformed Churches
Fellowship of Congregational Churches (Australia)
Free Reformed Churches of North America
Heritage Reformed Congregations
Huguenots (extinct as a modern and distinct group)
Hungarian Reformed Church in America
Orthodox Christian Reformed Church
Protestant Reformed Churches in America
Reformed Christian Church in Croatia
Reformed Church in America
Remonstrant Brotherhood
United Church of Christ
United Congregational Church of Southern Africa
United Reformed Church
United Reformed Churches in North America

Anabaptists
Amish
Beachy Amish
Nebraska Amish
Old Order Amish
Swartzendruber Amish
Hutterites
Bruderhof Communities
Mennonites
Alliance of Mennonite Evangelical Congregations
Anabaptist Association of Australia and New Zealand
Brethren in Christ
Chortitzer Mennonite Conference
Church of God in Christ, Mennonite (aka Holdeman Mennonites)
Conservative Mennonite Conference
Evangelical Mennonite Church
Evangelical Mennonite Conference
Evangelical Mennonite Mission Conference
Fellowship of Evangelical Bible Churches (formerly Evangelical Mennonite Brethren)
Mennonite Brethren Churches
Canadian Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
Japan Mennonite Brethren Conference
US Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
Mennonite Church Canada
Mennonite Church in the Netherlands
Mennonite Church USA
Old Order Mennonites
Swiss Mennonite Conference

African Methodist - Southern Africa
African Methodist Church - Zimbabwe
African Methodist Episcopal Church
African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
Bible Methodist Church
British Methodist Episcopal Church
Central Congo United Methodist Church
Chinese Methodist Church
Chinese Methodist Church - Australia
Christian Methodist Episcopal Church - Dallas, TX
Congregational Methodist Church
Church of Christ - Hong Kong & Peoples Republic of China
Church of North India
Church of Pakistan
Church of South India
Church of the Nazarene - Kansas City, MO
Evangelical Church
Evangelical Church of the Dominican Republic
Evangelical Church of Uruguay
Evangelical Methodist Church
Evangelical Methodist Church of Argentina
Evangelical Methodist Church of Bolivia
Evangelical Methodist Church of Costa Rica
Evangelical Methodist Church of Panama
Evangelical Methodist Church of Philippines
Evangelical Methodist Church of Portugal
Evangelical Methodist Community - Paraguay
The Evangelical Church - Spain
Evangelical United Church - Ecuador
Finnish United Methodist Church - Finland
The Free Methodist Church - North America
Free Wesleyan Church - Tonga
Fellowship of Independent Methodist Churches
Fundamental Methodist Conference, Inc.
Independent Methodist Church
Korean Methodist Church
Methodist Church, Hong Kong
Methodist Church in Ireland
Methodist Church in Singapore
Methodist Church of Bangladesh
Methodist Church of Brazil
Methodist Church of the Caribbean and Americas
Methodist Church of Chile
Methodist Church of Colombia
Methodist Church of Cuba
Methodist Church of Fiji and Rotuma
Methodist Church of Ghana
Methodist Church of Great Britain
Methodist Church of Hong Kong & Peoples Republic of China
Methodist Church of India
Methodist Church of Indonesia
Methodist Church of Italy
Methodist Church of Kenya
Methodist Church of Korea
Methodist Church of Malaysia
Methodist Church of Mexico Iglesia Metodista de México, Sitio Oficial
Methodist Church of (Lower) Myanmar
Methodist Church of (Upper)Myanmar
Methodist Church of New Zealand
Methodist Church of Nigeria
Methodist Church of Peru
Methodist Church of Puerto Rico
Methodist Church of Republic of China
Methodist Church of Samoa
Methodist Church of Sierra Leone
Methodist Church of Southern Africa
Methodist Church of Sri Lanka
Methodist Church of Togo
Methodist Church of Zimbabwe
North Katanga United Methodist Church - Kitwe Zambia
Primitive Methodist Church
Protestant Methodist Church - Benin
Protestant Methodist Church - Côte d’Ivoire
Salvation Army
South Congo United Methodist Church
Swedish United Methodist Church - Finland
United Church - Zambia
The United Church of Canada
United Church of Christ of Philippines
United Methodist Church
United Protestant Church - Belgium
Uniting Church of Australia
The Wesleyan Church - Indianapolis, IN
Wesleyan Reform Union
West Africa African Methodist - Philadelphia PA
West African Methodist Church - Sierra Leone

Apostolic Christian Church
Bible Fellowship Church
Christian & Missionary Alliance
Christian’s Missionary Church
Church of Christ (Holiness) U.S.A.
Church of God (Anderson)
Church of God (Guthrie, Oklahoma)
Church of God (Holiness)
Churches of God General Conference (Winebrenner)
Church of the Nazarene
Evangelical Covenant Church
Missionary Church
United Christian Church

Alliance of Baptists
American Baptist Association
American Baptist Churches USA
Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland
Association of Grace Baptist Churches
Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
Association of Regular Baptist Churches
Baptist Bible Fellowship International
Baptist Conference of the Philippines
Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec
Baptist Convention of Western Cuba
Baptist General Conference (formally Swedish Baptist General Conference)
Baptist General Conference of Canada
Baptist General Convention of Texas
Baptist Missionary Association of America
Baptist Union of Australia
Baptist Union of Great Britain
Baptist Union of New Zealand
Baptist Union of Scotland
Baptist Union of Western Canada
Baptist World Alliance
Bible Baptist
Canadian Baptist Ministries
Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
Central Baptist Association
Central Canada Baptist Conference
Christian Unity Baptist Association
Colored Primitive Baptists
Conservative Baptist Association
Conservative Baptist Association of America
Conservative Baptists
Continental Baptist Churches
Convención Nacional Bautista de Mexico
Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
European Baptist Convention
European Baptist Federation
Evangelical Baptist Mission of South Haiti
Evangelical Free Baptist Church
Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada
Free Will Baptist Church
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
General Association of Baptists
General Association of General Baptists
General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
General Six-Principle Baptists
Ghana Baptist Convention
Global Independent Baptist Fellowship
Grace Baptist Assembly
Independent Baptists
Independent Baptist Church of America
Independent Baptist Fellowship International
Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
Landmark Baptist Church
Liberty Baptist Fellowship
Myanmar Baptist Convention
National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
New England Evangelical Baptist Fellowship
New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
Nigerian Baptist Convention
North American Baptist Conference
Norwegian Baptist Union
Old Baptist Union
Old Regular Baptists
Old Time Missionary Baptists
Primitive Baptists
Progressive Baptists
Progressive National Baptist Convention
Reformed Baptists
Regular Baptist Churches, General Association of
Regular Baptists
Separate Baptists
Separate Baptists in Christ
Seventh Day Baptists
Sierra Leone Baptist Convention
Southeast Conservative Baptists
Southern Baptist Convention
Southern Baptists of Texas
Sovereign Grace Baptists
Strict Baptists
Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
Union d’Églises baptistes françaises au Canada
United American Free Will Baptist Church
United American Free Will Baptist Conference
United Baptist Convention of the Atlantic Provinces
United Baptists
United Free Will Baptist
Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
World Baptist Alliance
World Baptist Fellowship

Church of the United Brethren in Christ
Plymouth Brethren
Open Brethren
Exclusive Brethren
Indian Brethren
Kerala Brethren
River Brethren
Brethren in Christ Church
Old Order River Brethren
United Zion Church
Church of the Brethren
Conservative Grace Brethren Churches, International
Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches
Old German Baptist Brethren
Old Order German Baptist Brethren
The Brethren Church (Ashland Brethren)
Social Brethren

Catholic Apostolic Church
Restored Apostolic Mission Church
New Apostolic Church
United Apostolic Church

Abundant Life Worship Centers
Apostolic Assemblies of Christ
Apostolic Church of Pentecost of Canada
Apostolic Faith Church
Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa
Assemblies of God
Assembly of Pentecostal Churches of Jesus Christ
Bible-Pattern Church Fellowship
Calvary Holiness Association
Charismatic Episcopal Church
Christ Apostolic Church
Christian City Churches
Christ Gospel Churches International
Christian Church of North America
Christian Congregation of Brazil
Christian Outreach Centre
Christian Revival Crusade
Church of God of the Union Assembly
Church of the Little Children of Jesus Christ
Congregational Holiness Church
CRC Churches International
Destiny Church
Elim Fellowship
Elim Pentecostal Church
Fire Baptized Holiness Church of God of the Americas
God is Love Pentecostal Church
Holiness Baptist Association
House of Prayer Christian Church
Independent Assemblies of God, International
International Church of the Foursquare Gospel
International Pentecostal Church of Christ
International Pentecostal Holiness Church
Ministers Fellowship International
New Life Churches
New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc
Open Bible Standard Churches (association of autonomous churches)
Pentecostal Mission
Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada
Pentecostal Assemblies of Newfoundland
Pentecostal Church of God
Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church
Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches of North America
Pentecostal Churches of the Apostolic Faith
Pentecostal World Conference
Redeemed Christian Church of God
The Revival Fellowship
The Church of God (Jerusalem Acres)
The Church of God for All Nations
The Fellowship (FGFCMI)
United Gospel Tabernacles
United Holy Church of America
United Pentecostal Churches of Christ
Zimbabwe Assemblies of God Africa (ZAOGA)

Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus
Apostolic Brethren
Apostolic Church of the Faith in Jesus Christ
Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God
Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ
Bible Way Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ
Church of Jesus Christ of Prophecy
Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith
House of Prayer Christian Church
International Church of Jesus Christ
Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
Potter’s House Christian Fellowship
United Pentecostal Church International

Charismatic Episcopal Church
Full Gospel
New Frontiers
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Vineyard Movement
Catholic Charismatic Renewal

Calvary Chapel
Church of Christ, Instrumental (Kelleyites)
Christian City Church (“CCC” or “C3i”)
City Harvest Church
Eternal Grace
Evangelical Covenant Church of America (“Swedish Evangelical Mission Covenant”)
Evangelical Free Church of America (EFCA)
Fellowship of Fundamental Bible Churches
Grace Movement Churches
Great Commission Association
Greater Grace World Outreach
Hope Church Singapore
Indian Shakers
Jesus Movement

Metropolitan Community Churches
New Frontiers (formerly New Frontiers International)
Schwenkfelder Church
[/QUOTE]

I appreciate the effort it must have taken to type all of those in line by line, but before I take a week’s vacation to respond to your incredibly valuable post, I’d like to make sure that your experience with each individual denomination is sufficient to grasp the complexities of a succinct repsonse.

If you could provide your personal perspective on each, it would help me to determine which specific approach would be most fitting for you’re experience level.

I’ll wait…

90

[QUOTE=Polycarp]
Can things be learned from the Bible? With the exception of a few rabid anti-religionists, I think the consensus is yes, even among the agnostics, atheists, and other non-Christian/non-Jew members.
[/quote]

I would add the caveat that, though wisdom can be found in the bible (I actually like the book of Ecclesiastes), that because there is so much anti-wisdom ,one must already know what wisdom looks like, else one might actually stone their children for being stubborn. Knowing what wisdom looks like already, sort of makes the bible superfluous. I would also add that a lot of other books offer considerably more wisdom, without the slightest appeal to the supernatural. Even philosophers of the time period, Plato and Aristotle for example, dwarf the bible with regards to both theoretical and practical insights. I personally don’t think there is hardly a twit of wisdom coming from Jesus. He comes off as no more than a self righteous, communistic, genocidal, hippie to me.

Much, if not all, of which is to varying degrees unknown.

I think this type of answer is much improved from your norm.

91

[QUOTE=baronsabato]
What churches have you been to? I was raised in a very fundamentalist Southern Baptist church, went through a brief Evangelical phase, and I’m now a mainline/liberal Protestant, and I was NEVER taught in ANY church I’ve been to that hell is a literal pit of fire. As a Southern Baptist and an Evangelical, I was told it was eternal separation from God, not a fiery pit- and this was coming from a Southern Baptist church that took the book of Revelation fairly literally (let’s just say that they used Jack Chick’s interpretation). As a mainline Protestant, well, most of the members of my current church don’t really believe in hell at all…
[/QUOTE]

Baronsabato, are you and your chuchmates so liberal in your interpretations of heaven? If not, why not?

92

Okay. Let’s try this.
If the ants in my yard develop a rudimentary intelligence and begin to wonder about the world around them and some get together and create some books in different areas and times and at some point come together as a tribe and bring these books into one place and, with a little editing and rephrasing and reordering (as in the J,E,D and P documents) they develop a book they agree to call THe PentANTeuch. And in this book they address the Great One (me) that brings the rains and the floods (my sprinklers) and the taking of the unrighteous in a whirlwind (my mower) and the killer of the unworthy (Amdro).
Many generations have passed (a couple of years to me) and their position is “These books are perfect because HE is perfect and if there are any flaws it must be due to translations or misunderstanding because HE is perfect.”
Here are some possibilities.

  1. I am perfect and the book they wrote is also perfect.
  2. I am perfect but the book they wrote is flawed
  3. I am flawed but amazingly enough, the book is dead-on.
  4. I am flawed and the book they made up is flawed.
  5. I do not exist and some ants have written a book that they have held dear for a long time (in ant years at least) and it is flawed because it is written by a bunch of stupid ants.

I think that you believe number 1 but fail to see that there is not necessarily any connection between the two. I can exist outside of the speculative writings of a bunch of ants.

Many Christians I have talked with lean more towards number 2

I’m going with number 5.

93

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Your third step includes an excluded middle. You are assuming that the Christian Bible is “His Word,” but you have established no grounds for doing so. You have to be more careful than that around here.

Also I will give you a respectful fair warning that you should expect your cut and paste boilerplate defenses to the the errors will probably get eviscerated. I’m already quite familiar with all of them, as are a number of others around here. Don’t expect that you’re going to surprise us with anything.
[/QUOTE]

I appreciate the warning, but I’ve been down this road more times than I can count. When I said that my “list” is cut and paste, I meant that the responses are just as hard to refute because it’s ALL conjecture anyway. Not I nor anyone here has any real proof of anything, just varying degrees of predication based on a personality nuances.

Except for you and a few others it seems like an exceedingly ornery bunch and while I’ve dueled with my share I suspect some are prone to dissension even in the face of legitimate logic.

94

[QUOTE=sfworker]
Are there are errors in the Hebrew OT (Torah) and the Greek NT (Septuagint)?
[/QUOTE]

Have fun:

I’ll leave it up to you to convert to Hebrew/Greek.

95

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Your third step includes an excluded middle. You are assuming that the Christian Bible is “His Word,” but you have established no grounds for doing so. You have to be more careful than that around here.

Also I will give you a respectful fair warning that you should expect your cut and paste boilerplate defenses to the the errors will probably get eviscerated. I’m already quite familiar with all of them, as are a number of others around here. Don’t expect that you’re going to surprise us with anything.
[/QUOTE]

“You are assuming that the Christian Bible is “His Word,” but you have established no grounds for doing so”

Well, I did say that my premise is that the Bible is the Word of God early on and that without that we have no common ground. I don’t debate for the sake of debate, but do so in seeking deeper truth. Because Scripture is welded to my brain pan and isn’t something I can easily shed. I like discussing Scripture, but don’t care much for arguing about it.

96

[QUOTE=Apos]
That must have really sucked for Moses when God dictated the parts about Moses dying and being buried before ever getting to the holy land. Imagine having to write about your own future death and burial! I wonder if God capped Moses in the back of the head when he was done writing about it.
[/QUOTE]

That assumes that God has the same sort of character as me–i.e., is an ass. And that’s far too depressing a thought. Even I wouldn’t want to live in a world as designed by Skald the Rhymer.

97

[QUOTE=badchad]
Have fun:

I’ll leave it up to you to convert to Hebrew/Greek.
[/QUOTE]

They already give responses. It’s an interesting link though, I’ll spend some time there. Thanks!

(How do the dissenters handle that? Are there counter-arguments to the answers?)

98

[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase]
Since you keep saying “today’s church,” could you please point out the exact doctrinal differences among the following denominations? Please be specific and discuss them individually. Thank you.

(I have to leave many out to fit the space, but please don’t limit yourself.)

Albanian Catholic Church
Armenian Catholic Church
Belarusian Catholic Church

[most of long list snipped]

Metropolitan Community Churches
New Frontiers (formerly New Frontiers International)
Schwenkfelder Church
[/QUOTE]

That was very, very cruel. And I mean that as a compliment.

99

Here’s a link that should raise a few hackles.

100

[QUOTE=sfworker]
I appreciate the warning, but I’ve been down this road more times than I can count.
[/quote]

Respectfully, I don’t think you have. At least not with anyone who knows what they’re talking about. You’ve already made a number of errors both factual and logical which suggest some inexperience in debating the subject matter.

No. I’m talking about hard factual errors and demonstrably incompatible contradictions. I’m not talking about translational mistakes or unfounded leaps of interpretation (which I get the impression is what really bothers you).

I’m not sure what you mean by this but many of the errors I’m talking about are eminently provable and surmountable only by the most tortured reaches of speculation, false or unfounded historical claims, disengenuous interpetive devices and other tactics which, I assure you, can be easily countered, refuted and debunked. The Bible contains human error. There is really no question of that, but that, in itself, is not a disproof of the existence of God. You really shouldn’t get too hung up on tying your faith to a necessary belief in the infallibility of the Bible. You might not have realized it but you’ve been debating a couple of Christians in this very thread who can accept human error in the Bible without surrendering their faith. It’s not as difficult as you think.