Esp. for pro-lifers: What would happen if abortion were outlawed?

[wonky]

*Originally posted by Summertime *
**What about your husband gettting a vasectomy? **

Vasectomies fail.

Julie

[Palo_Verde]

*Originally posted by Evil Captor *
**Just remember: nobody (except you) gets hurt if you just do what the anti-choice folks say. **

And the baby, let’s not forget about the baby.

By the way, jsgoddess “We also know from the medical literature that delayed failure does occur, but so rarely that vasectomy is at least 10 times more dependable than tubal ligation (female sterilization) and at least 100 times more effective than use of hormonal contraceptives (birth control pills or shots).”

[wonky]

*Originally posted by autz *
**By the way, jsgoddess “We also know from the medical literature that delayed failure does occur, but so rarely that vasectomy is at least 10 times more dependable than tubal ligation (female sterilization) and at least 100 times more effective than use of hormonal contraceptives (birth control pills or shots).” **

That’s all fine and dandy until you’re the exception and you don’t have any recourse.

(I have friends who were in this situation. His vasectomy failed. I was incredibly ignorant about such things and didn’t know that was possible. Apparently, there was more than a little friction in their household until he was actually checked out and declared fertile.

I can’t even imagine what the average husband would think if his wife became pregnant after a vasectomy.)

Julie

[istara]

*Originally posted by autz *
Imagine that you got pregnant and you believed (I know you don’t, but just imagine with me), really believed that that thing inside you was a baby. As much a baby as any live, cooing and giggling baby.

1. I would believe it was a baby

2. I would abort it anyway, if I didn’t want it

[candida]

Actually, that ‘live, cooing and giggling baby’ has to be one of the best ‘hitting over the head with a fetus’ events we’ve had here recently.

[Bryan_Ekers]

Originally posted by autz *
Imagine that you got pregnant and you believed (I know you don’t, but just imagine with me), really believed that that thing inside you was a baby. As much a baby as any live, cooing and giggling baby.*

So if things were different, they wouldn’t be the same? Why don’t you try a thought experiment in which you see the thing inside you as a huge financial and emotional burden, and that taking time out to deliver and care for it would derail your career and generally mess up your life?

The appeal to emotion (“cooing and giggling” ?) seems out of place in a serious debate.

[CrazyCatLady]

*Originally posted by Summertime *
**What about your husband gettting a vasectomy? **

He can’t get sterilized for the same reasons I can’t get sterilized…under 35 and no kids. So we just hold off on the sex thing for the next ten or fifteen years, till someone decides we’re old enough to know what we want, is that it?

And autz, it doesn’t matter if it’s a real, live baby or not. It’s not worth nine months of the horror of having a real, live leech sucking up my resources and causing permanent changes to my body, nor is it worth putting up with nine months of, “You’re giving away your baby? Why? Don’t you love it?” (Why, no, actually, I don’t love it, and don’t love anything that can reasonably be called “it.”) Nor is it worth years of maudlin speculation by friends and relatives as to what happened to it, what it’s doing now, what it looks like now, etc.

[CrazyCatLady]

Also, autz, it’s not a game to me, thought or otherwise. It’s a very real and very important part of my life. The issue of trying to balance a healthy marriage and never, ever getting pregnant so I don’t have to have an abortion is something I deal with every single day.

[Palo_Verde]

*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers *
**Why don’t you try a thought experiment in which you see the thing inside you as a huge financial and emotional burden, and that taking time out to deliver and care for it would derail your career and generally mess up your life?
**

I don’t need to do a thought experiment.

Contrary to your assumption that I have lived in an ivory tower all my life, throwing cans at poor pregnant women, I have actually been in that situation. You can read a bit about it here.

[Bryan_Ekers]

*Originally posted by autz *
Contrary to your assumption that I have lived in an ivory tower all my life, throwing cans at poor pregnant women, I have actually been in that situation.

I never had any such assumption. I was simply inviting you to try the same “thought experiment” you proposed to CrazyCatLady, except instead of using emotion as a guide (i.e. thinking about a cooing baby), using hard economics (i.e. thinking about the financial burdens).

[Bryan_Ekers]

Of course, on reflection, I shouldn’t have used the phrase “emotional burden” in my proposed thought experiment. Please ignore that and only use economic/financial factors.

[istara]

Bryan - I think the emotional burden thing is very relevant. After all, it is a major concen. It’s not as though even if you go for adoption, you can necessarily cut yourself off emotionally (or even your relatives, as CrazyCatLady points out).

Also - the cooing baby analogy played to emotion, so I think yours was a fair parallel.

[Blalron]

*Originally posted by Summertime *
**What about your husband gettting a vasectomy? **

Vasectomy is a reasonable option much of the time, but not always.

For example, let’s say you want a child in the future SOMEDAY, like 10 years from now when you’ve gone through school and have enough money, but having one right now would destroy all your future plans.

Vasectomy can only be reversed 50% of the time. So it’s only a good option for people who are certain that they never want children in the future.

[CrazyCatLady]

Yep, and that’s exactly why it’s so damn hard to get sterilized if you haven’t already tossed out some progeny. For some reason, doctors are far more willing to believe you don’t want more kids than they are to believe you don’t want any kids.

[Blalron]

Which is why saying “get a vasectomy” or “get your tubes tied” is much easier said than done.

[Super_Gnat]

*Originally posted by Blalron *
**Vasectomy is a reasonable option much of the time, but not always.

For example, let’s say you want a child in the future SOMEDAY, like 10 years from now when you’ve gone through school and have enough money, but having one right now would destroy all your future plans.

Vasectomy can only be reversed 50% of the time. So it’s only a good option for people who are certain that they never want children in the future. **

Or perhaps you could get sperm samples frozen for use 10 years later if you like. [semi-hijack]Since vasectomies and tube-tying don’t interfere with sperm and egg production, is there any reason they couldn’t be harvested from those individuals if and when they decide to have kids?[/semi-hijack]

[Bryan_Ekers]

*Originally posted by Super Gnat *
Or perhaps you could get sperm samples frozen for use 10 years later if you like.

Yeah, but then your kids would always have to wear sweaters!

[Blalron]

*Originally posted by Super Gnat *
**Or perhaps you could get sperm samples frozen for use 10 years later if you like.

It actually costs quite a bit to keep sperm frozen. It doesn’t just go in a regular freezer you know. Not everyone can afford to pay for 10 years of sperm storage costs.

Plus that’s no guarrantee that the sperm will remain viable after all that time.

[semi-hijack]Since vasectomies and tube-tying don’t interfere with sperm and egg production, is there any reason they couldn’t be harvested from those individuals if and when they decide to have kids?[/semi-hijack] **
[/QUOTE]

I know with vasectomies, half of the men develop antibodies that kill their sperm. So no they can’t always be harvested.

[Siege]

autz, I’m on page 3 of this thread, so I may have missed something, but I should have warned you. Back in the Winter of Our Missed Content, I started a similar thread to this one, posing the question, “If Abortion Were Illegal What Would the Penalties Be?” (or something like that) directed specifically a pro-lifers, and heard back primarily from pro-choicers. I’ve got a few other thoughts, but I want to read the rest of this thread some time when I have more time.

Oh, Il Topo, while I disagree with a lot of what you said so far, there’s one thing in which you and I are completely in agreement on – I also get pleasure out of debates about serious topics. That’s one of the reasons I have no small talk.

CJ

[Essured]

*Originally posted by autz *
**Imagine that you got pregnant and you believed (I know you don’t, but just imagine with me), really believed that that thing inside you was a baby. As much a baby as any live, cooing and giggling baby.

Would 9 months of your discomfort be worth the life of this real child? If you believed this was a baby, you would probably be willing to withstand the temporary unpleasantness and then give the child to another loving family.
**

I did get pregnant. About six months ago, from memory. I piss-on-a-stick every two months, just to be on the safe side, and it came up positive. I tested again. And again. After three days and ten tests, I figured it was definitely a positive I knew I had a baby growing inside me. I knew a unique, living human being was developing in my uterus. There is no “believe” about it. I know my biology and I know I was nurturing a new human. I arranged a doctors appointment immediately. I was only concerned with getting an abortion as quickly and cheaply as possible.
Before I was sexually active, I thought this through carefully and I have revisited the issue several times. If I ever fall pregnant the only option for me is abortion.
Fortunately in this case, I had what is known as a ‘chemical pregnancy’ where the fertilised egg failed to continue its development and the pregnancy naturally failed. But I intended to abort as soon as possible.
As far as adoption goes… there’s two sides to that coin. My husband has told me he might be unable to give up his child for adoption. Given that I have no moral or ethical problems with abortion, why on earth would I continue a pregnancy that would result in a child that neither my husband or myself wanted, but that my husband wasn’t prepared to give away ? The fact that it is a new baby, a living human being, only makes my decision easier. If it was a tub of vegemite, yeah, I’d nurture it for nine months. I could put the vegemite in a cupboard and forget about it. A child is forever, adopted or not. There is no temporary about it. And unpleasantness doesn’t even come close to describing hoe pregnancy makes some people feel. Don’t assume everyone feels the same way as you do about born babies, and pregnancy, let alone unborn ones.

**
I guess my point is that unpleasant things happen, and sometimes it’s no one’s fault. When I drive my car I risk an accident. I can do a lot to lessen the chances of an accident (follow traffic laws etc.), but I could still get into a life threatening accident. I know it’s a risk, and yet I’ll willing to take that risk for the pleaure and convenience of driving a car. **

When I have sex, I risk a pregnancy. I do a lot to lessen that risk, but it still could occur. As long as abortion is available, I’ll willingly take that risk for the pleasure and meaningfulness of having a sexual relationship with my husband. If abortion was unavailable, I would re-weigh the risks involved and make adjustments.

The point you seem to be making is that we should not avail ourselves of our preferred option (should pregnancy occur, of course. Preventing it occuring in the first place is obviously the most preferable) that we have no problem with. Can you see how that isn’t appealing or even slightly persuasive ?