Estacy and driving - does it a murder make?

I agree that this crime does not fit the definition of first degree murder, but possibly second degree. While the collision was an accident, she clearly waited for this man to die…her intention, it appears, was that he die so they could get on with covering up the incident. That sounds like a good case for second degree murder.

Now the point about this being less than murder and deserving less than a life sentence I disagree with. I am more offended by this crime than I am by most murders I read about, and I feel that her punishment should be at least what she’d get for murder, hopefully with something cruel and unusual thrown in for good measure.

This case is pretty clearly murder, as defined by essentially any state. The interesting part (from a psychosocial and semantic viewpoint) is that she committed so many crimes that evening that most get lost in the pile. She could be charged with murder for far less than she actually did

If I kidnap someone and lock them in my garage, I’d be considered for murder if they died, in any jurisdiction. Not providing air, food or water, and knowingly deprived them of essential heart or other medications – these have all been classified as clear murder in many jurisdictions. (I’m horrified by parents who act like they are being gracious by feeding, clothing, and sheltering their children. (Listen, bub, you starve, dehydrate, or freeze your kid, and I’ll pull the lever myself. I don’t care how rebellious they are!)

It would be interesting to tabulate how many different crimes she committed that night, some of which she admits continuing even after this supposedly traumatic event.** She kept drinking, doing drugs, and going to those same clubs 10 miles away to do it (vs drinking or drugging at home, if you want to call her an ‘addict’)?

Presumably, if he hadn’t died, she’d have left him there indefinitely. Her actions over the next week displayed no remorse. She continued to drink, do drugs, and go to the same clubs after this “traumatic” event. She volunteered the details, with little need, apparently feeling little shame. I don’t see hopeful signs for rehabilitation in her behavior over the past 2 years. She’s still a threat to anyone around her, claiming only ‘bad judgement’ as an excuse?

Specific ‘intent to kill’ is not as relevant as some argue. If I see an injured man on the street, bring him home to help him, and he sees a stash of drugs in my house. I can’t lock him in my garage until he dies, and expect a charge of depraved indifference, manslaughter, etc. despite my original intent to “help him”. She had no benevolent intent, but simply denies any malevolent intent. The fact is, she displayed a near-sociopathic disregard for him as a human. I truly wonder if she actually did apologize to him , or if that was a lie to attempt to mitigate what she’d done.

Imagine a gangster arguing "I didn’t want him dead. I shot him because… " a) I was trying to intimidate him; b) I was interrogating him; c) I lost my cool after he didn’t respond to torture; d) how esle could I keep him from testifying against me; e) after his fingers & toes, knees & elbows, his head an torso were the only places left to shoot him. “Hey, he owed me money. He dies, I don’t get paid. But you shoot a guy that many times, they tend to die. I didn’t write the laws of physics.”

Her only defense? “I didn’t set out to kill anyone … but you ram a guy with a car so hard his leg comes off, then lock him in the garage overnight, and he’s gonna bleed to death. I didn’t write the laws of physics.”

(the friend who wanted to call the EMTs is an accessory: it’s no different than keeping mum as your neighbor slowly tortures runaway teens to death in their basement. Is ‘friendship’ truly a justification for that?)

You’d have to prove them all a trial, but the public facts seem to indicate the following (not all of which I’m actually sure are crimes under Texas law):

Possession/use of an illegal substance
DWI (both alcohol and ecstasy)
Leaving the scene of an accident
Failure to stop and render assistance
Kidnapping
Murder/manslaughter/neglignt homicide
Destruction of evidence and conspiracy to commit same (she pled guilty to DoE before trial)

I wonder if making kids take some classes in legal basics and criminal investigation in high school would make them less likely to make idiotic criminal decisions as adults.

I can’t agree.

I do agree that this crime is rather hideous but I do not put her on the same plane as someone who just goes out and shoots someone. This woman is clearly overly self-absorbed, stupid and seriously lacking in ‘moral fiber’. However, she does not strike me as someone who seeks to cause harm to others as a murderer does. She did leave the guy hanging in her windshield to die but she did so under extreme stress and made an astoundingly bad and reprehensible decision. I do not see that on the same level as a murderer who goes out and shoots someone and leaves them to die.

Please understand I am appalled by this crime and I do think she should spend a LONG time in jail for it but I don’t think she is the same sort of menace to society as a more ‘typical’ murderer is. Maybe she will be a better person after reflecting on her actions in an 8x9 cell for 20 or so years…at least one can only hope.

I know you said you didn’t know that your list necessarily constituted a crime in Texas but is “failure to stop and render assistance” ever a crime anywhere? Certainly there is a moral component that you would hope most people would stop but I thought you could not be found criminally responsible for ‘not’ doing something.

Damnit, you’re right. Kidnapping as a charge plain didn’t occur to me (yeah yeah, I know), and is of course another avenue for a first degree murder charge: felony murder, instead of merely intentional or knowing 1st degree murder as I assumed above.

Sure, if you’re the one who was involved in the accident. Colloquially, this is a “hit and run.” If you’re in an accident, or hit someone with your car, the law requires you to stop and render what assistence you can. Still, this is a less serious crime than kidnapping and murder, so her lawyers are claiming ths is all she’s guilty of.

It is in Texas. See Transportation Code Section 550.021

This applies to operators involved in the accident, not to passers by.

On the contrary, the difficulty of proving a specific intent to kill is the only thing preventing this from being tried as a capital murder instead of a 1st degree murder, and is probably saving her life. If you kidnap somebody and they die as a result although you don’t intend for them to or want them to, that’s felony murder, a 1st degree felony. You don’t have to prove that they intended to murder the person, only that they intended to commit the underlying felony (kidnapping) and the person died as a result.

If, on the other hand, you commit a kidnapping and then during the course of it intentionally murder someone, that’s capital murder, a capital felony. The indictment doesn’t charge capital murder, so the prosecution only has to prove that either she kidnapped him and as a result he died, or that she knowingly (not necessarily intentionally) caused his death.

The friend, oddly enough, may have committed no crime at all. Merely knowing about another’s commission or attempt of a crime and failing to report or prevent it (even if your neighbors are killing runaways) may be morally reprehensible, but in most circumstances isn’t a crime.

Say what?

Seeing as ecstasy makes you have overwelming feelings of love and empathy for everyone around you I would argue that this makes her even more of a callous bitch! I cant really see how this is not murder at all, in fact I find this more appalling than someone shooting their lover in a crime of passion type scenario…

Hell yes it’s murder. I hope she gets locked up so she can’t get high and kill anyone else in the process.

I have to wonder if she’s a sociopath or something. What kills me is her going out to APPOLOGIZE. When she was sorry at all.

Ironically, she’s much worse off than if she had just gotten him help and fessed up to her original crimes.

I have absolutely no sympathy for her. In fact, I have less than that-is it possible to have negative sympathy?

Had she just hit and killed the guy, I would say manslaughter, DUI, and whatever other charge fits in there (reckless endangerment?), but I think if she intentionally let a man bleed to death in order to cover her own ass, she is a murderer.

The concept that there is a person out there who is such a bitch that she would be able to commit a murder while on ecstasy boggles my mind. What must she be like normally? Yikes.

LC

The word you’re looking for is antipathy.

LC

Looks like the answer is “yes”

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/26/windshield.death/index.html

[applause] That’s the second good piece of legal news today. Sometimes Texas justice is a good thing.