What would happen if a guy took doses(large?) of estroven?
He’d start growing breasts and stop growing facial har. This is one of the preliminary steps that transexual males take to becomning “female”.
IANA MD But I don’t think feminization would occur unless the individual took androgen blockers as well.
Are you confusing Estroven with estrogen?
From the Estroven website:
http://www.estroven.com/estroLIFT.html
“Estroven is made with natural plant estrogens from various plants including soy, combined with essential nutrients like calcium, folic acid and B-vitamins.”
How much effect this would have on a man, I am not sure, but I do suspect it would be much less than estrogen (which is only available by prescription).
Estroven is available over the counter and is targeted to menopausal women.
your humble TubaDiva
Administrator
The first two answers in this thread are incorrect.
A chromosonal male who took sufficienctly large doses of estrogens (synthetic or natural) will develop breasts. In addition, his testicles will shrink somewhat, and his scalp hair will grow more rapidly. Subcutaneous fat deposits will increase and his skin will soften. Body hair growth may diminish somewhat, but generally no significant reduction in beard growth will occur without the concomitant use of antiandrogens. Even with the use of antiandrogens, beard growth never stops and a transsexual woman usually has to resort to permanent hair removal techniques such as electrolysis or photolysis to remove the unwanted beard.
Androgen blockers are not required for feminization. My breasts grew in a matter of months while taking only conjugated natural estrogens (Premarin). I take spironolactone now (an antiandrogen) as well; its main benefit has been to reduce the rate at which hair grows on my arms and legs (and to make me need to pee all the time).
Q.E.D., a male-to-female transsexual is a female. Calling such a person a “transexual male” is simply incorrect. A “transsexual male” would be a female-to-male, and his hormone regimen would consist of injections of testosterone.
TubaDiva, Estroven is usable as a source of estrogen for the purpose of hormone replacement. The only difference between HRT for postmenopausal women and HRT for transsexuals is dosage. Estroven contains phytoestrogens, and enough of it would cause feminization in chromosomal males.
Just remember that phytoestrogens are plant compounds, produced by plants for plant purposes, which happen to resemble mammalian estrogens to an extent, and have some estrogenic activity at the estrogen receptor site on cells.
We really do not know how effective phytoestrogens are as long-term hormone replacements, nor do we really know how well they work if used to feminize males. There is a very large gap in our knowledge about their effects, for good or bad. We have a far, far greater amount of information about the effects of mammalian estrogens, especially when considering whether or not to use them for very long periods of time and/or in very high doses.
Perhaps phytoestrogens have a tremendous value for use as a pharmacological agent, perhaps not. We don’t know yet. Given that lack of knowledge, if an individual really has a medical need for estrogen, I would recommend they use mammalian estrogens and not phytoestrogens.
I disagree. Unless he can get rid of his Y chromosome, he’s still biologically a male, regardless of external appearance. You can’t paint white stipes on a black horse and call it a zebr.
Zebra!
Q.E.D., I must disagree strongly. If there’s one thing I’ve learned in over twenty years of medicine, it is that sex and gender and sexual identity are all extremely complex, and do not march to the orders of mere chromosomes. There are individuals who have Y chromosomes who are born with a normally formed vagina and clitoris. This is called testicular feminization. To declare these people to be “biologically male” is both incorrect and cruel.
Frankly, both sex and gender are spectrums, it is not a black and white divide.
QtM, MD
You’re not going to convice me…and this isn’t GD. So, we stand where we stand.
QtM, you’re now talking about inter-sexuality rather than trans-sexuality. The two are distinct.
Q.E.D., you can take that argument to Great Debates, but you may rest assured that your position carries virtually no support in the medical or scientific community.
QtM, I agree on your recommendation of mammalian estrogens, although with some trepidation as I do not approve of the inhumane way Wyeth-Ayerst collects pregnant mare urine to make Premarin. (The observant reader will note that I, nonetheless, take Premarin.)
Estroven, at least the “extra strength” version, contains black cohosh, which is a rather potent and dangerous herb. I know trans women who have tried to use black cohosh as a substitute for or adjunct to medically supervised HRT. Some of them had serious complications, including permanant heart and liver damage. I would be very concerned about using a product containing black (or blue) cohosh in any significant quantity.
Desmostylus, it is my belief that transsexuality will be proven in the not too distant future to be a type of intersexuality (specifically, a developmental defect in the portion of the brain that encodes gender). (This belief is based in large part on a number of smaller studies that found evidence in support of this thesis.) I wouldn’t hang on too tightly to the notion that the two are distinct.
I see you snuck a post in, Q.E.D.. Google “intersex”, then report back.
Medically, the term ‘biological male’ or ‘female’ applies to body morphology. Not chromosomes. The XY individual with testicular feminization is biologically female, but chromosomally male.
I admit that legally, the definition may vary, depending on which jurisdiction you are in. In some states, the biologic male is legally defined as the “one who impregnates” which puts another spin on it.
Rather than hijack this thread about phytoestrogens further into the depths of murky waters of sexuality, I think I’ll just leave it at that.
On a more careful reading of your posts, QtM, I withdraw my quibble.
I admit my error and sit corrected.
I’m a white male, 44, 170 pounds, six foot tall. I was forced to cross dress, starting before I was three years old until I was almost ten. I was never able to get away from it, and I grew up with it. I’ve always managed to hide it, somehow,for about forty years now. But I’m now to a point in my life that I’m tired of hiding. I wanted to start becoming for feminine, but didn’t know where to start without going broke in the process. Long story short…I started taking maximum strength estroven about a month ago…my skin has become softer, and my breasts are starting to become more noticeable and alot more sensitive. I wish it would change my small nipples into larger ones, but even if it doesn’t, I’m already happy with the progress. I would love to hear from any other guys that have been taking estroven for a long time and what other changes I can look forward to. I take two pills every evening before I eat dinner.
Moderator Action
Welcome to the SDMB, Glenn Miller. Please note that the thread you are replying to is over a decade old. Because of this thread’s extreme age, many of the original thread participants are likely no longer around to read or comment on your reply.
We’ve added a few forums since this thread was created, and the topic is no longer appropriate for the General Questions forum, which is for questions which have a factual answer. Since this thread is over ten years old, I am just going to close it rather than move it to a different forum.
Feel free to start a new thread in the appropriate forum. If you just want to share experiences, that would be most appropriate in the Mundane Pointless Stuff I Must Share (MPSIMS) forum. If you want advice (especially medically related) or poll everyone’s opinions about this topic, you can post in the In My Humble Opinion (IMHO) forum. If you want to debate any aspects of this topic, you may do so in the Great Debates forum. If you have specific factual questions, those can be posted here in General Questions.
Thread closed.