Ethical/moral teaching dilemma (hopeless student) (kinda long)

In My Humble Opinion
21

[QUOTE=Figaro]
::Sigh:: I tend to be stubborn about treating adults like adults, and so I’ve probably underestimated this angle. It’s significant to me, with that in mind, that his parents are so intimately involved in his decision making (and they are…I hear about it from him) and yet they have never spoken to me directly about any of this. And they have spoken to other members of the faculty, including my department chair (who supports me completely, by the way, and is possibly happier than I am to see “student x” go). I have always assumed they reached out to her because I’m only adjunct, and she’s easier to get hold of, but if I follow this line of thinking to its logical conclusion it’s easy for me to arrive at: “they’ve decided to make me the problem.”
[/QUOTE]

I was watching Dr. Phil the other day. He did a program on parents giving up everything to get their utterly talentless children into showbusiness. It’s some kind of a delusional and pathetic mental problem where they are actually convinced that the child is The Next Big Thing. They will do whatever they can, including neglecting their other children, to get a kid’s career going. I suspect the reason they don’t come to you is because they’ve gone to the previous teachers and heard The Worst Possible News. They don’t want to be told repeatedly that they’re making a mistake. This kid would probably rather be anywhere else on Earth than standing in front of sheet music. I feel very sorry for him.

I’ll add that opera is a much tougher field to break into than most other forms of music. It is a tightly knit group comprised of fewer participants performing to smaller audiences. You really have to be da shit to make a career of it.

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[QUOTE=vetbridge]
Is the teacher licensed/credentialed/whatever by the state or overseeing body of the profession? If so, I think your only option is to wish the student well.
[/QUOTE]
Heh. No such thing in the musical world, my friend. Well, you can have a doctorate (which I do), which at least indicates that you’ve got some academic rigor to back up whatever your experience as a performer and teacher may be.

But, quite literally, the only thing one needs to do to be a voice teacher is claim to be a voice teacher. You don’t even need to be able to sing well yourself. I’ve known organists, pianists, choir directors, orchestral conductors…you name it… who have adopted the self-styled moniker of voice teacher. None were good at it, and none had the humility to realize that knowing what you like and what you don’t in a voice when you hear it in no way equips you to teach. A good teacher not only knows what they’re hearing, but also why they’re hearing it and (most importantly!) what they’re not hearing. Leading people towards their potential takes skill and vision. Not just an opinion.

Hmmm…you seem to have struck a nerve :stuck_out_tongue:

At any rate, I know very little about Teacher X’s background.

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Sorry, I assumed a teacher would have some sort of over sight, similar to doctors/lawyers/indianchiefs. I would still not interfere with the student’s
choice.

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Figaro, have you ever heard the old saw, “No good deed goes unpunished.”?
'Cause I think trying to warn this kid about the new teacher is definitely going to backfire on you. You did your best, let it go and find a new challenge that’s worth your concern.

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[QUOTE=vetbridge]
Sorry, I assumed a teacher would have some sort of over sight, similar to doctors/lawyers/indianchiefs. I would still not interfere with the student’s choice.
[/QUOTE]
It’s a logical assumption, vet – I didn’t mean to jump on it quite so enthusiastically :wink: . And I’m becoming more and more convinced that leaving things alone is the best way to go.

26

Sorry. But I’d say the lazy student and the incompetent teacher are a match made in heaven. They might drive each other right out of the business! Step aside and swirl your cape. Best you completely remove yourself from this train wreck. You did what you could to help him and he decided what you were providing wasn’t enough. That’s the end of your responsibility towards him. Work is a contract and you seem to have tried your absolute best!

27

I’ve watched people fall for scam literary agents and publishers for the last few years, despite numerous, repeated, and very detailed warnings online about them. Some people simply will not listen to reason. He’s going to do what he wants anyway, so saying anything won’t do any good for anyone.

He’ll never be a professional opera singer, and he’s going to blame everyone but himself for it. Just be happy he’s no longer taking up your time and energy.

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[QUOTE=vetbridge]
Sorry, I assumed a teacher would have some sort of over sight, similar to doctors/lawyers/indianchiefs. I would still not interfere with the student’s choice.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=An old guitar teacher of mine]
No one pays the admission price to look at your diploma.
[/QUOTE]

..

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Today, on Behind The Music, the story of the famous opera singer who almost gave up his dream…

:smiley:

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[QUOTE=Boggette]
Sorry. But I’d say the lazy student and the incompetent teacher are a match made in heaven. They might drive each other right out of the business! Step aside and swirl your cape. Best you completely remove yourself from this train wreck. You did what you could to help him and he decided what you were providing wasn’t enough. That’s the end of your responsibility towards him. Work is a contract and you seem to have tried your absolute best!
[/QUOTE]
Total aside: looks like you and I have similar posting habits, **Boggette ** :slight_smile: And I do dig the cape idea…

Sadly, these days American universities are moving towards a two-pronged qualification for hiring music professors.

  1. Be famous

  2. Have a doctorate.

Sadly, neither one means squat about a person’s real ability as a teacher.

Yeah. Don’t think that hasn’t occurred to me :smiley: . I think I remember an interview with Renée Fleming (just about the most transcendant voice to come along in the last 20 years) in which she said she took over 200 auditions before getting her first good role. But in Student X’s case, I feel pretty solid in my opinion. It’s not a matter of taste. It’s a matter of can’t sing.

31

[QUOTE=Figaro]
He has trouble grasping basic musical concepts like simple rhythm, even though he has taken 2 years of university-level music theory.
[/QUOTE]

I would like to take this opportunity to engage in a minor hijack.

Why is it that some singers (among others) feel little need to become musicians? Can they really not be bothered? A woman I dated for a few years really wanted to become an opera singer. She had a decent instrument, but had no interest in theory. I tried to buy her a clue once, and got her an intro to theory workbook for a Christmas present. I even offered to help her through it. I thought it would be fun, and would bring us closer together. Nope. No interest whatsoever. She was destined to become the world’s greatest diva, and little things like not understanding the basics of rhythm and harmony were not going to get in her way.

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[QUOTE=Figaro]
It’s not a matter of taste. It’s a matter of can’t sing.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe you can get Simon Cowell to do your dirty work for you. :wink:

33

I am a veterinarian. I will sometimes have a client request their records be faxed to Dr X for a 2nd opinion. IMHO Dr X is a total quack, HOWEVER he is licensed by the state to practice veterinary medicine, so my opinion means nothing. I fax the records and say not a word.

(Just some background)

You know, I taught at a local community college years ago. I should have realized since I had no teaching credentials/license.

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[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
How old is he? I’m sure his parents see their child as the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I think they’re the ones that need the wake-up call, particularly if they’re funding his study.

Get him hooked up with a journalism course and tell him his interest in opera would be best served by writing reviews for the local newspaper.
[/QUOTE]

Good one! Yea, I might speak to the parents since they’re probably paying for it.

35

[QUOTE=tdn]
I would like to take this opportunity to engage in a minor hijack.

Why is it that some singers (among others) feel little need to become musicians? Can they really not be bothered? A woman I dated for a few years really wanted to become an opera singer. She had a decent instrument, but had no interest in theory. I tried to buy her a clue once, and got her an intro to theory workbook for a Christmas present. I even offered to help her through it. I thought it would be fun, and would bring us closer together. Nope. No interest whatsoever. She was destined to become the world’s greatest diva, and little things like not understanding the basics of rhythm and harmony were not going to get in her way.
[/QUOTE]
Ok. I’ll bite. As a “smart” singer (you’ll have to take my word for that :stuck_out_tongue: ), I have often been vexed by the same question.

Answer #1: for a few (very few) lucky people, singing well only requires talent – not so much skill. There is a small minority among singers who are so gifted vocally – so naturally coordinated, strong, and acoustically beautiful – that literally anything they do strikes listeners as incredible. Some of the most famous singers of all time fall into that group.

Exhibit A: Leonard Warren (Not a dummie by any standard, but he barely read music, spoke no languages, and needed a pianist to teach him everything note by note. Also perhaps my favorite singer of all time, because the sheer splendor of his voice will always be a mystery to me, and his operatic recordings are riveting. Not so much this one…but I needed to use YouTube…)

Answer #2: people like to think of the human voice as “magical” and mysterious. To add skill and “technique” (including knowledge of music as an art and science, knowledge of the physiology of the voice and acoustics, etc.) somehow pollutes the pleasant illusion. If you’ve watched any of American Idol, you’ve seen this in action. Most of them can’t read music. They have no idea of how their voices work. They just want to be “artists.”

Answer #3: Unlike every other instrument under the sun, you can’t see your voice, and it has no prescribed method of use. To learn the piano, you must learn how to place your fingers, etc., and you can see others do it. You cannot bypass that step. Likewise for the violin, flute, guitar, whatever. But we’ve all been using our voices since birth, and have long since taken them – and how we use them – for granted.

So just getting a singer to contemplate how they physically use and produce thier voices is challenging enough. Getting them to do the same kind of analytical thinking about music itself – which most singers have enjoyed and had a natural knack for since childhood – is even harder, because it doesn’t directly affect how they sound.

In mild defense of this tendency, most singers spend long years in practice rooms and lessons trying to iron out the myriad wrinkles of developing a beautiful, even, and athletic voice. It’s not as if they don’t work hard at any aspect of their craft.

Anser #4: IMO, intelligence can sometimes be an impediment to good singing, because it can lead to self-consciousness, tension, and over-thinking about simple activities. Some of the most gifted singers I’ve known have also been…not dumb - please don’t get me wrong about that…but less than brilliant. They are able to give in to the physical openness, release, and vulnerability required for singing at the utmost levels of achievement without getting all neurotic about it.

The consequence: trying to explain a secondary dominant takes a little extra time :wink:

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I’d like to add, by the way…just so I’m not perpetuating the stereotype of the stupid singer, which really gets my hackles up…that once you get up into the successful ranks of operatic singers you encounter very few musically unsophisticated people. The stars and semi-stars I’ve had the priviledge of singing with (I am certainly no star myself) have been savvy, skillful, and in every way imposing people who have demonstrated an extraordinary blend of talent, craft, and hard work.

But every now and then you still meet “Mr. Big Career” who can’t find beat 2 in the bar… :dubious:

37

[QUOTE=tdn]
I would like to take this opportunity to engage in a minor hijack.

Why is it that some singers (among others) feel little need to become musicians? Can they really not be bothered? A woman I dated for a few years really wanted to become an opera singer. She had a decent instrument, but had no interest in theory. I tried to buy her a clue once, and got her an intro to theory workbook for a Christmas present. I even offered to help her through it. I thought it would be fun, and would bring us closer together. Nope. No interest whatsoever. She was destined to become the world’s greatest diva, and little things like not understanding the basics of rhythm and harmony were not going to get in her way.
[/QUOTE]

This has been a pet peeve of mine forever; not so much with all singers, but with musicians. When you’re dealing with rock music in particular, raw emotion usually prevails over the technical aspects. Obviously, the rules and demands change as you move through the spectum of musical styles. However, the music behind it can be so much more effective if the musician understands theory. I think that they don’t truly understand how formal knowledge can “free” them artistically. Puzzling, for sure.

38

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
…However, the music behind it can be so much more effective if the musician understands theory. I think that they don’t truly understand how formal knowledge can “free” them artistically. Puzzling, for sure.
[/QUOTE]
I consider Music Theory one of the most poorly taught subjects around. Personally, I had wonderful theory teachers, but I’ve also seen gaggles of bad ones. Many put the subject out there as a list of rules and labels without any context, and without taking the time to demonstrate exactly what you just pointed out…that fluency in any language frees you to use it more expressively and more creatively. Why teach it if you’re not going to give people a reason to care?!

39

I have a suggestion about how to warn this person. Assuming that he doesn’t have to resign from your university before he gets into the other one, just tell him that no teacher can guarantee admission, and that he shouldn’t burn any bridges. All true, and no gossip. If they do let him in, good riddance. If they don’t, maybe he’d become ready to work. If not, you can fire him for not keeping up his end of the bargain, right?

He’ll no doubt get ripped off at some point, but that’s kind of the flip side of not being able to cheat an honest man.

40

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I was watching Dr. Phil the other day. He did a program on parents giving up everything to get their utterly talentless children into showbusiness. It’s some kind of a delusional and pathetic mental problem where they are actually convinced that the child is The Next Big Thing. They will do whatever they can, including neglecting their other children, to get a kid’s career going. I suspect the reason they don’t come to you is because they’ve gone to the previous teachers and heard The Worst Possible News. They don’t want to be told repeatedly that they’re making a mistake. This kid would probably rather be anywhere else on Earth than standing in front of sheet music. I feel very sorry for him.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the hijack, but how did they go about this? There are of course scams where “managers” will charge you for pictures and then send them to agents. But legitimate agents and managers know very well how to get rid of those without the right talents, since 98% of those going to open auditions fall into this category. Perhaps they spend all their time driving their kids to ripoff acting lessons or something? Having been involved in the business, I’m curious if there are new ripoffs around.