Yes there was violence against jews after the Zionist movement was underway. When it became clear that Jews wanted to carve out a slice of the former ottoman empire to create their own country, yeah, there was violence against Jews.
cont.
[quote=“Malthus, post:198, topic:554116”]
Google-bombing does not an argument make.
Are you seriously trying to argue that Israeli arabs don’t suffer from discrimination in their own country?
[quote]
The greatest influx of Jews into Asia Minor and the Ottoman Empire, occurred during the reign of Mehmed the Conquerors’s successor, Beyazid II (1481-1512), after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain and Portugal. The Sultan issued a formal invitation to Jews expelled from Spain and Portugal and they started arriving in the empire in great numbers.
[quote]
The point is that this was not some marginal difference in how jews were treated by the Ottomans versus teh Europeans, the sort of hostility you see these days is not the legacy of historical prejudices, it is the legacy of teh founding of teh state of Israel.
Tehre may be nothing we can do about the creation of teh state of israel but pretending that it wasn’t the source of a lot of the hostility towards Jews in the Middle East is more than misleading.
I’m not mistaken with my figures but I think that’s because we are at odds with the definition of what makes an illegal settlement illegal. In short according to international law all settlements built on land that within the the area known as The Occupied Terrirories are illegal. Where your figures differ from mine is where Israel gives permission for illegal settlements to be built in the face of international law.
Cool! So when can I expect my check?
[quote=“Damuri_Ajashi, post:202, topic:554116”]
Are you seriously not reading what I wrote?
I said in post 162 above:
Posting links concerning anti-Arabism on the part of Israelis is quite besides the point, since we agree it exists and is bad.
Posting self-described “personal views” is also quite besides the point, as we both know that some people believe that Israel treats Arabs as second-class citizens.
The facts are that, no doubt, there exist specific examples of discrimination - heck, the Israeli government’s own commissions of inquiry find that there are; but that does not justify the moniker ‘second class citizen’, any more than the fact some Jewish Israelis hate Arabs does.
The fact that, when challenged on it, even those who are most het up about alleged offical discrimination choose such weak-ass examples as the forgetful lack of signs in Arabic in a new airport terminal, show that they got - very little.
[From your own cite - the second from the bottom]
No, where we’re at odds with our figures, I think, is that you’re including in your figures Israelis living in East Jerusalem and I’m not. My numbers just include those settlers in the West Bank.
There was violence against Jews before that. At one point in the 15th century, all the Jews were temporarily expelled from Yemen. At another point, the Jewish population of Safed was wiped out. Looking at North Africa, there were numerous massacres of Jews in Morocco and Algeria. In Muslim Spain, the Jews of Granada were at one point massacred by an anti-Jewish mob. Treatment of Jews were on average better in the Muslim world than the Christian world, but it wasn’t a paradise.
Actually, the more I read on the subject, the more I realize that the Holocaust wasn’t an exceptional or even particularly uncharacteristic set of events. It represent the culmination of centuries of abuses, made unusual only because then-modern industrial methods were applied, combined with then-modern propaganda techniques. Nazi Germany wasn’t a uniquely anti-Semitic movement representing an aberrant moment in German/European history; it was merely the latest and most focused version of attitudes that were already well-established and to a lesser extent, still are.
Oh, hating and killing Jews has a long and distinguished history.
The more I read on the subject the less I feel that Historical murder justifies present day murder or previous injustice allows for further injustice.
That’s cool. What’s your proposed resolution that would allow Israel to live in a reasonable state of security?
By the way, were you the one linking to the Finkleman video? I watched it; I disagree with him on a number of points, but he doesn’t outrage me to the level where I’d heap even mild personal scorn on him.
So there is ONE thing that Palestinians want that Israel MIGHT be willing to give them through negotiations, these settlers are making more difficult?
Because you said: “They’re a hostile foreign **nation
[/quote]
under military occupation.”
There is this tendendcy to cframe the palestinian situation as a “war” rather than an occupation or even just subjugation of indigenous population. The natives might be restless but they aren’t a nation against which istrael is waging war is it? Or is it?
By we, I mean the US of A.
Did you notice teh “if”. Did your grandlfather invest heavily in IBM and then have his shares confiscated by the government? if not then what happened to those shares.
There is this tendendcy to cframe the palestinian situation as a “war” rather than an occupation or even just subjugation of indigenous population. The natives might be restless but they aren’t a nation against which istrael is waging war is it? Or is it?
[/QUOTE]
They’re not a country, but they’re a nation. There’s a definite shared concept of what a Palestinian is and isn’t. They’re a nation that wants a country.
[quote=“Malthus, post:206, topic:554116”]
Its not just personal private prejudice, like some woman accusing an arab man of rape because she thought he was Jewish when they had sex. Its codified in the law.
How do you define second class citizen. Would you have called the blacks in the south during Jim Crow second class citizens? How about Philipinos in Kuwait? Or Malays in Malaysia? There is sytemic, endemic discrimination against arabs in Israel. To me, that is second class citizenship.
Don’t bother. You’re addressing someone who would rather throw out self-serving technicalities than address how to create a lasting peace.
Hating and killing generally has a long and distinguished history.