Ethics of Israeli settlements

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@xtisme

@ElvisL1ves

Let me know when you can explain how Israel’s policy of supporting the settlements in Palestine differs from ethnic cleansing.

You would first have to demonstrate that there has been a “mass expulsion and killing” following the efforts of Israel (or Israeli’s) to settle these areas. Thus far you have attempted to simply appeal to emotion, and play silly word games.

Ethnic cleansing doesn’t require murder. are you saying tehre was never any expulsion of palestinians or confiscation of their property?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Malthus

@These are my own pants

More mealy-mouthed justification of the unjustifiable:rolleyes:

A lot of so-called ‘public land’ inn the West Bank was confiscated from the Palestianians for ‘security reasons’ and instead of being returned to the owners when it was no longer needed for ‘security reasons’ it was given over to settlers.

The fact is settlers do build on private Palestinian land and they do so with impunity as if Palestinian is lucky enough to find a judge sympatheic enough to rule in their favour the IDF rarely enforce those orders.

That’s avoiding the question of why on Earth you think settlers have the right to build on Palestinian public land rather than it being used for the benefit of the Palestinians.

Anyway, fuck off back down whatever hole you crawled out of.

Your anger is inappropriate. I’m not seeing any “justification” here, merely a disagreement over whether Israeli seizure of public lands “affected a really small percentage of the population” as Captain Amazing claims, or “a lot” as you claim; also, your claim that Israeli courts are ineffectual and unenforced presumably disagrees with his point that Israel generally respects current Palestinain land ownership.

Nor has Captain Amazing expressed any opinion as to whether setters have any right to build on Palestinian public land, as you allege.

I think what is pissing him off is that he think Captain Amaziong is justifying ethnic cleansing while denying that any ethnic cleansing occurred.

Eithr it occurred and you stand by it or it din’t occur. I think its hard to maintain the argument that there was a deliberate removal of Palestinians from Israel. I think its hard to say that is NOT ethnic cleansing (not in the genocide sense but ethnic cleansing nonetheless).

I think another thing that’s pissing him off is that Captain Amazing ignores the inconvenient parts of history. Israel was overwhelmingly owned by muslims (including communal ownership), now it is not.

[XT]

@Damuri Ajashi

Ethnic cleansing doesn’t require murder. are you saying tehre was never any expulsion of palestinians or confiscation of their property?

Let me turn it around…do you have evidence of ethnic cleansing on the part of Israel? The only ‘expulsion of palestinians’ I’m aware of happened during what was for all intents and purposes a civil war just prior to Israel becoming a state or just after when it was fighting for it’s life and existence. As for confiscation of their property…again, what evidence do you have to present that this has occurred or is still occurring? While I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened (I’m pretty sure it did), I’d like to see you back up your assertions that ethnic cleansing (by whatever definition you wish to torture the term into) happened or is happening, and your assertion that property has been confiscated, so we can see exactly what circumstances of both were.

Before the creation of teh state of Israel, the land belonged to arabs. After the war dislocated a large chunk of arabs, the land was confiscated and noew belongs to israel.

Cite? AFAIK, before the war the land belonged to the BRITISH, was under their direct control, and privately some land was owned by Jews and some was owned by Palestinians, with the vast majority not owned by anyone, but subject to British authority (it was ‘owned’ previously by the Ottoman Empire or Ottoman officials or regional administrator types IIRC).

If I’m wrong about that then by all means, fight my ignorance and show me a cite clearly showing that the region of Israel belonged ‘to arabs’.

If you believe that might makes right in that part of the world then sure, the land belongs to whoever can hold it against all assailants.

Might makes right in EVERY region of the world. People just have a dual standard when it comes to Israel, IMHO.

But one day that worm will turn and if you rely on that sort of rationale for your property rights then you have no argument when someone comes along and takes your land away from you.

And if that happens, I wonders how many of you will be doing the same song and dance over the displaced of Israel (or crying over the massacre that is sure to happen if Israel ever loses a major war and is conquered). I’m guessing…not a lot…

-XT

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@xtisme

@Damuri Ajashi

Ethnic cleansing doesn’t require murder. are you saying tehre was never any expulsion of palestinians or confiscation of their property?

Let me turn it around…do you have evidence of ethnic cleansing on the part of Israel? The only ‘expulsion of palestinians’ I’m aware of happened during what was for all intents and purposes a civil war just prior to Israel becoming a state or just after when it was fighting for it’s life and existence. As for confiscation of their property…again, what evidence do you have to present that this has occurred or is still occurring? While I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened (I’m pretty sure it did), I’d like to see you back up your assertions that ethnic cleansing (by whatever definition you wish to torture the term into) happened or is happening, and your assertion that property has been confiscated, so we can see exactly what circumstances of both were.

So you agree with everything I said but you want to see if I can come up with a cite for it? WTF?

Is there any doubt that Israel confiscated land of the Palestinians that left before the war in 1948 (and then weren’t allowed to return)? This land was confiscated as being abandoned. Some people say “well they deserved it for leaving on the eve of war” How many Jews left Germany and Poland on the eve of war? Were they wrong to do so? Its fucking war, noone wants to be in the middle of that if they don’t have to be.

Is there any doubt that Israel has confiscated the land of many of the Palestinians that remained (through condemnation (a sovereign right) that only seemed to fall on the shoulders of Palestinians)? Even as recently as 20 years ago Israel was condemning Palestinian villages so that they could develop the land into larger cities and towns, which would be fine if the price paid for this land was anywhere close to fair as opposed to the lowest price a reasonable person could defend.

Cite? AFAIK, before the war the land belonged to the BRITISH, was under their direct control, and privately some land was owned by Jews and some was owned by Palestinians, with the vast majority not owned by anyone, but subject to British authority (it was ‘owned’ previously by the Ottoman Empire or Ottoman officials or regional administrator types IIRC).

If I’m wrong about that then by all means, fight my ignorance and show me a cite clearly showing that the region of Israel belonged ‘to arabs’.

The british mandate didn’t mean that the Brits “owned” anything, they governed, not owned. This is what google threw up:

http://www.ap-agenda.org/nasser/nasser3.htm

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story571.html

http://www.zionism-israel.com/maps/Palestine_Land_Ownership.htm

http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Land_question_in_Palestine.htm

This last one, is a zionist site that lays out the facts (more or less) and then interprets it in the light most favorable to the zionist movement.

Jews wanted a homeland in the Holy Land so they tried to buy themselves a slice of the holy land. They were hobbled by land laws that made it hard for Jews to buy land and in many cases the land was not alienable. By 1947 Jews owned about 7-8% of Palestine, and non-Jewish Palestinians owned about 45% of Palestine, the rest was basically wasteland or owned by Muslim religious organizations. Zionists dispute the 45% (which was based on the land tax rolls) because much of this land was not owned in fee simple the way we understand it. It was owned communally by a village or it was owned in a form that allowed you the use of the land and allowed you to leave that land to your heirs but it did not allow you to sell the land and if you died without heirs, the land reverted to the state. The Zionist position is that land that is not owned in fee simple is not really owned so the Palestinians in fact didn’t own a lot of land. Which of course is bullshit.

Might makes right in EVERY region of the world. People just have a dual standard when it comes to Israel, IMHO.

Did might make right in Kuwait in the early 1990’s?

Perhaps we were holding Saddam Hussein to a double standard. :rolleyes:

But one day that worm will turn and if you rely on that sort of rationale for your property rights then you have no argument when someone comes along and takes your land away from you.

And if that happens, I wonders how many of you will be doing the same song and dance over the displaced of Israel (or crying over the massacre that is sure to happen if Israel ever loses a major war and is conquered). I’m guessing…not a lot…

-XT

That’s right because most of us who think that the Zionist treatment of the Palestinians are really just anti-semites looking for an excuse to hate Jews. :rolleyes: